Bad at Larches #1

[badatusernames]

I recently picked up five very root bound larches for a decent price reflecting the condition. My original intent had been to make a forest with them eventually, but now I'm eyeing a few of them and wondering if they should stand alone, and what direction I want to take them regardless. I may eventually start threads on the others, or just wrap them into this one.

I need to repot them, very badly. I think early March should be fine here to repot larch. Given how neglected they've been in this regard, I'm curious on two things:

1. Given how rootbound it is, should I do anything other than repot it this year? Wire, cutting, etc? I think getting it into a new pot is going to be pretty rough on the roots based on what I was told about what to expect in the pot.

2. If I should do anything... well, here's what I'm thinking, and I'm curious to hear your feedback.

Here is larch #1 for now. It seems like with a simple cut of the apex you could have a pretty decent start on a formal upright. The taper seems actually OK. I haven't spent a ton of time with them because of the weather but that's my initial impression. Cleaning up obvious things like bar branches &etc needs to be looked at, perhaps wiring an initial shape, but I think chopping it here is a pretty solid start, whether or not it goes into a forest. After cleaning and chop I can let it rest til next year - OR, wait til next year to clean and chop.



But then turn it 90 degrees, and you get this weird swerve right below where that chop would be. So I wonder if that needs to go, or if I need to incorporate it somehow.



And then of course there's the option of chopping SUPER low, say above the first or section branch, and focusing on building out the trunk further.

I figure that given that I can't make a forest with what I have right now and need to wait at least a year to let them recover in a new pot, I should treat them as separate trees and style them to the best of my abilities.

What do you think? Am I on the right track? Should I chop this year, or should I repot and wait til next and touch not even a single bar branch? Interested in your feedback, and perhaps as this one progresses I can introduce the others.

 

[sorce]

I wouldn't chop it until the chop is almost too big to heal if you'll heal it, if not, heep it longer while you Design the rest. Provided it's not ruining the rest.

If it don't Ruin it it's Doin' it!

Sorce

 

[River's Edge]

I recently picked up five very root bound larches for a decent price reflecting the condition. My original intent had been to make a forest with them eventually, but now I'm eyeing a few of them and wondering if they should stand alone, and what direction I want to take them regardless. I may eventually start threads on the others, or just wrap them into this one.

I need to repot them, very badly. I think early March should be fine here to repot larch. Given how neglected they've been in this regard, I'm curious on two things:

1. Given how rootbound it is, should I do anything other than repot it this year? Wire, cutting, etc? I think getting it into a new pot is going to be pretty rough on the roots based on what I was told about what to expect in the pot.

2. If I should do anything... well, here's what I'm thinking, and I'm curious to hear your feedback.

Here is larch #1 for now. It seems like with a simple cut of the apex you could have a pretty decent start on a formal upright. The taper seems actually OK. I haven't spent a ton of time with them because of the weather but that's my initial impression. Cleaning up obvious things like bar branches &etc needs to be looked at, perhaps wiring an initial shape, but I think chopping it here is a pretty solid start, whether or not it goes into a forest. After cleaning and chop I can let it rest til next year - OR, wait til next year to clean and chop.

View attachment 352486

But then turn it 90 degrees, and you get this weird swerve right below where that chop would be. So I wonder if that needs to go, or if I need to incorporate it somehow.

View attachment 352487

And then of course there's the option of chopping SUPER low, say above the first or section branch, and focusing on building out the trunk further.

I figure that given that I can't make a forest with what I have right now and need to wait at least a year to let them recover in a new pot, I should treat them as separate trees and style them to the best of my abilities.

What do you think? Am I on the right track? Should I chop this year, or should I repot and wait til next and touch not even a single bar branch? Interested in your feedback, and perhaps as this one progresses I can introduce the others.

You originally stated the root work was expected to be extensive and that you had been advised by the seller to expect problems. On that base alone I would do the root work first as highest priority and wait to see how the tree's respond during the growing season. If there were serious root issues than it is likely the health of the tree's was compromised.
This is in answer to your first question, I would advise only the root work when first acquiring tree's that the overall condition is unknown.
The traditional guideline of performing major root work separately from other Bonsai techniques is a sound practice when one does not have a history with the tree in question.
By postponing additional work you are simply allowing the tree to gain strength before additional work is performed. A stronger healthier tree will respond better to future work.
By focusing g on correcting the badly root bound situation you will have a better understanding of what is possible with each tree individually or as a group.
An opportunity to evaluate and improve nebari as well as study carefully flare and taper!

At the same time if the trees were mine I would clean up any dead tips and remove branches that may create issues in development. The trunk sizes are small enough to allow for more thickening and growth. I base the size guesstimate on the likely width of the green tags versus the trunk width. It is not needed to chop at this stage in my op[inion. Particularly that you will not get excessive growth and thickening in the growing season immediately after major root work.

 

[badatusernames]

You originally stated the root work was expected to be extensive and that you had been advised by the seller to expect problems. On that base alone I would do the root work first as highest priority and wait to see how the tree's respond during the growing season. If there were serious root issues than it is likely the health of the tree's was compromised.
This is in answer to your first question, I would advise only the root work when first acquiring tree's that the overall condition is unknown.
The traditional guideline of performing major root work separately from other Bonsai techniques is a sound practice when one does not have a history with the tree in question.
By postponing additional work you are simply allowing the tree to gain strength before additional work is performed. A stronger healthier tree will respond better to future work.
By focusing g on correcting the badly root bound situation you will have a better understanding of what is possible with each tree individually or as a group.
An opportunity to evaluate and improve nebari as well as study carefully flare and taper!

At the same time if the trees were mine I would clean up any dead tips and remove branches that may create issues in development. The trunk sizes are small enough to allow for more thickening and growth. I base the size guesstimate on the likely width of the green tags versus the trunk width. It is not needed to chop at this stage in my op[inion. Particularly that you will not get excessive growth and thickening in the growing season immediately after major root work.

That’s extremely helpful, thank you. I imagine I should put it in a colander or large, well draining terracotta pot rather than directly into a bonsai pot as well.

or better yet a well draining wooden box, but i don’t have any of those just yet!

 

[badatusernames]

Oh, and before I forget - I've read that larch can be repotted in winter, even should be repotted in winter, but given that it's in the teens here I have to imagine that waiting until it gets to maybe the 30s is a better idea, unless being very rootbound is critical enough to necessitate an immediate repotting... let me know what you think,.

 

[River's Edge]

That’s extremely helpful, thank you. I imagine I should put it in a colander or large, well draining terracotta pot rather than directly into a bonsai pot as well.

or better yet a well draining wooden box, but i don’t have any of those just yet!

The size of the current containers seems appropriate, depends on the drainage! After root work they should be plenty large enough. If you are going to grow them out for four or five years you could shift them to larger containers or the ground after they recover from the root work in a year or so. They will recover better and be easier to manage the watering if in snugger containers to begin with. For that reason the wooden boxes are usually constructed to allow some room beyond the root ball but not a lot of room. At least during recovery after major repot or collection. In this way the nebari will improved before letting them grow without disruption. keep in mind that if the roots are a real mess it may be wise to deal with the root ball in stages rather than attempting everything at once. North Eastern US is a pretty large area, I assume you are speaking Fahrenheit so my advise would be to wait until the buds just begin to swell and then due to the root work give them a bit of protection from hard frosts. In particular do not water heavily just before freezing temperatures are expected .

 

[Forsoothe!]

I repot when fully foliated in June, but others don't. I would trim the top for economy and slice the bottom 80% off the roots with a saw and plant it in full sun in the ground (on a tile) that gets wet every day (assuming it is L. larcina). Like at the base of a downspout. Nothing is more important than full sun with cool roots. That will maximize growth/recovery. Next year, do whatever you want.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I second the advice from @River's Edge
Personally, I am not a fan of planting trunks in the ground. My soil is a dense clay, any tree planted in the ground quickly becomes impossible to remove from the ground without major damage. I do all my sizing up in pots as RIver's Edge described.

Use of colanders was originally developed for pines. Colanders are a bad idea for trees requiring constant moisture. Pines like drying out between watering. Larches from mountainous areas, like European larch, western and alpine larches, require drying out between watering. Eastern North American Larch, tamarack, Larix laricina is from northern temperate lowlands. In the southern part of its range it is primarily from swamps and bog, acidic, wet peaty soils. In the northern part of its range, Canada primarily, it is more widespread, occurring in more upland settings. But unlike its mountainous cousins, the Larix laricina does not like to get dry between watering. It requires more constant moisture. It still grows best in a well aerated media, but it does not "want" to dry out between watering. Therefore, a colander is a poor choice of pot to use for Larix laricina. If you use a colander, you will have to be extra diligent with your watering frequency to avoid a fatal dry out episode. Colanders are not for "all species" nor for "all occasions". Colander use is best reserved for species that tolerate drought, or require drying between watering.

"Formal upright" - the trunk of the tree you posted is already "too crooked" to qualify as "Formal Upright". The style of FU is difficult to pull off correctly. Most bonsai judges are quite harsh when it comes to judging a FU, you really need absolutely straight trunks to start an FU, Most FU attempted, end up being informal uprights, or naturalistic uprights, or other styles. I would train the tree in the photo as a natural upright larch, I would not add curves to fit "Japanese informal upright", but I would not try for "FU". Just make it look like a natural larch as you might see diving around in New England states.

Chopping larch - as a general rule, or in an effort to help. Never just chop. Create a jin, that is a deadwood feature, and initially leave the jin longer than your design might require. It is easy to shorten a deadwood feature later, it is quite difficult to add a deadwood feature back. You can by a succession of chop and regrow, create a tapered trunk, but you will almost always end up with a bend in the trunk where the chop was done. May as well leave a deadwood feature there, to visually explain the jog in the trunk's direction. You can always remove the deadwood later if you don't like it. You create deadwood by stripping the bark and cambium from the branch or trunk you want to turn into a deadwood feature.

On BNut search for posts by "Crust", he is David Crust, and he is quite the larch artist. David created quite a number of his own larch compositions, and currently is caretaker for half a dozen or so Nick Lenz larch compositions. So his photos or worth seeking out for inspiration.

While I have offered advice about styling, I whole heartedly agree with @River's Edge that you should repot and work the roots first, wait a year or even more, then after you have had some vigorous growth indicating roots have recovered, return to the issue of styling. ( while most of the time, one growing season to recover from drastic root work is enough, sometimes more than one growing season is needed for recovery. Let the vigor of growth tell you when the tree has recovered).

 

[LanceMac10]

These look great for a forest planting, not so much as stand alone specimens.
Get your roots straight before you even think about "styling". Last one I re-potted on St. Patrick's day. Protect from frost after re-pot.
I DO water heavily prior to freezing temps. A lot more "energy" required to freeze a root ball solid....
I go pretty hard on the roots and don't touch the top on a piece of material at this stage. Maybe dead/weak branches, anything that looks too vigorous in the apex...husband your lower branches to keep them strong.
Tamaracks not so reliable of a back-bud-der, so don't let the apex take over.

 

[LanceMac10]

 

[badatusernames]

That’s excellent help, thank you, and the jin and “standard vs FU” makes sense to me.

and yes, perhaps the forest is the right move after all... that was the intent, so they weren’t really picked with an eye to making them standalone, so i should likely just stick with the plan

I’ll post up the others as they get repotted when the time is right. there’s one that looks like it could grow into a semi-cascade that I’m interested in input on specifically, the rest are somewhat more filler material so they’re definitely destined for forest one way or another.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Actually, the one you posted would make a fine stand alone tree. Just not a "FU".

It also would make a fine focal point in a forest planting. While a forest planting is often made from trees that are not quite "good enough" or "mature enough" to be stand alone trees, the best forests are often assembled from trees that had been trained as stand alone trees. Some of the Japan blogs show forests assembled out of trees that were already in training for more than 50 years. So there is a wide range of material that can be used for forests.

When you repot these relatively recently collected larches, if a couple of the have gaps in the arrangements of roots, try making up pots of 2 or 3 trees tight together, for a year or two of "pre forest training". Key in planting up a forest is to have irregular spacing of trees, so it doesn't look like a man made plantation. Slam a couple larches right against each other. Let them grow together a few years. Then bring an assortment of larches together into a larger forest.

 

[badatusernames]

Actually, the one you posted would make a fine stand alone tree. Just not a "FU".

It also would make a fine focal point in a forest planting. While a forest planting is often made from trees that are not quite "good enough" or "mature enough" to be stand alone trees, the best forests are often assembled from trees that had been trained as stand alone trees. Some of the Japan blogs show forests assembled out of trees that were already in training for more than 50 years. So there is a wide range of material that can be used for forests.

When you repot these relatively recently collected larches, if a couple of the have gaps in the arrangements of roots, try making up pots of 2 or 3 trees tight together, for a year or two of "pre forest training". Key in planting up a forest is to have irregular spacing of trees, so it doesn't look like a man made plantation. Slam a couple larches right against each other. Let them grow together a few years. Then bring an assortment of larches together into a larger forest.

That sounds like a great idea. If the roots allow for it I would really like to get the head start by doing that this year with at least two and possibly three of them, while allowing the two left over to recover to be styled as standalones the following year. In a few years from that, maybe I can see if it makes sense to put them all together, or perhaps another idea will have emerged.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Ad each successive year, you can collect a few more larches.

Then you can put together a 9 or 11 or 15 tree forest.

 

[badatusernames]

Ad each successive year, you can collect a few more larches.

Then you can put together a 9 or 11 or 15 tree forest.

I like how you think.