"Bald Cypress Primer" Ryan Neil's video at BonsaiMirai.com has me ripping my hair out

BillsBayou

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Here is a link for a Bald Cypress that I just think is Awesome. Its from Adamaskswhy
https://adamaskwhy.com/2017/03/06/a-flat-top-bald-cypress-bonsai-story-and-a-question/
That tree belongs to a friend of mine. He had it at the Greater New Orleans Bonsai Society meeting just this past Tuesday. We had our silhouette show that night. I think he may have posted photos of it on the GNOBS Facebook page. He's been mentored by Randy Bennett, who himself has been doing bonsai since the 70s. The first few photos were taken at Randy's house. I break down the men in the photos in the comments section of Adam's article.
 

KiwiPlantGuy

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Hi all,
I haven’t tried acquiring any seed of BC, but have got a couple of nursery trees at 6 foot of so.
Would semi-hardwood cuttings root ok? Also my ‘via pot’ air layer the BC seems to form calousing but not root yet. Probably me being impatient lol
Charles
 

Underdog

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Would semi-hardwood cuttings root ok?
I too am wondering this.I have a couple growing now but was shocked to find one growing in an Ohio strip mine pond. I thought they were southern trees exclusively until Leo set me straight a couple years ago. I assume it was planted during the reclamation project and no saplings are around it.
I'd like to get a start from this tree as it's obviously very cold hardy,
 

BillsBayou

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I saw the bald cypresses along the Guadalupe River in Texas hill country, north of San Antonio. It was immediately obvious that they grew differently than Taxodium distichum. I assumed they were
is that possible? Guadalupe does flow to the Rio Grande, and the former range of Taxodium mucronatum did include the Rio Grande valley. I don't know, I'm not saying they were mucronatum, but the Texas hill country cypress did not look like a bald cypress. Nor did it grow like one. Could it be a hybrid between the two species? Just speculating, I don't know the answer.

I did visit, by canoe, one of the oldest bald cypresses growing in the state of Illinois. Yep, extreme southern Illinois does have a bald cypress swamp on the Lower Cache River. The big tree is 23 feet across at the waterline, and estimated to be 1300 years old. Not a flat top at all, more a repeatedly broken top

Note - winter is the best time to visit the cypress swamps - no mosquitoes and the cotton mouths are hibernating. I hate cotton mouths, most aggressive poisonous snake I have ever met, and big too. Bald Cypress are native to the southern half of Illinois, but the Cache River is the northern most fully developed Bald Cypress-Water Tupelo swamp, and a few cypress domes. Further north it tends to be scattered pockets with just handfuls of trees , without a fully developed swamp ecosystem, nor any cypress domes.

View attachment 173916

below is this same tree from a distance. NOt very tall, but repeatedly broken.

Bald Cypresses make up most of the trees in the far background.

View attachment 173917

View attachment 173919

random tree

View attachment 173918
This is a great post. Investigative Journalism, Taxodium Division.

Bald cypress respond to vicious experiences that would kill many other trees. You don't have hurricanes and we don't have snow. There's more at play than just that, I'm sure. I only see the ones from Houston to Florida, so I'd like to know more about more northern trees.
 

Anthony

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How about the Tropical ones, trees from Lafayette public school
given out on Arbor Day and now 1 growing down here ?

We are only just now getting to air layers and cuttings.

Advice welcome.

We need at least 20, before touching the mother as of the 6.
brought down, the only one left.
Death of others, more from wiring, and forgetting to water.
They were given out as gifts.:(

From 1980, by the way.
Good Day
Anthony
 

Michael P

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Fantastic photos of that tree!

Some authorities (Shinner's and Mahler's Flora of North Central Texas) hold that there is only one species of Taxodium, with three subspecies. What seems likely is that the ancestral Taxodium was widely distributed over North and Central America when the climate was wetter and warmer than it is now. As the climate dried and cooled, populations of Taxodium became isolated from each other and differentiated into the varieties we see now. The Hill Country trees may well be more closely related to T. murcronatum than T. distichum. Does anyone want to fund a DNA sequence study to find out, LOL?
 

Mellow Mullet

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Hi all,
I haven’t tried acquiring any seed of BC, but have got a couple of nursery trees at 6 foot of so.
Would semi-hardwood cuttings root ok? Also my ‘via pot’ air layer the BC seems to form calousing but not root yet. Probably me being impatient lol
Charles

Never had any luck with air layering or growing from cuttings. Nor has anyone else, local, that I know of. They grow fast from seed and are easy to start.

John
 

JudyB

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The Saints will beat the Vikings this weekend in Minnesota
Amen to this! (I'm a Green Bay fan and owner!) (one share LOL :D)
Here's a great ol Hackberry collected by Bobby Burgett in Louisiana many years ago, traded to Don Blackmond for a big ficus, I got it from Don in 2008 or so. My tip of the hat to Louzianna.

Wonderful thread, we need more threads like this one!!!

P1020345.jpg P1020565.jpg
 

JudyB

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I too am wondering this.I have a couple growing now but was shocked to find one growing in an Ohio strip mine pond. I thought they were southern trees exclusively until Leo set me straight a couple years ago. I assume it was planted during the reclamation project and no saplings are around it.
I'd like to get a start from this tree as it's obviously very cold hardy,
I bought local nursery stock and kept it for years here in this climate with no problems. Wintered outside- this was before I had a cold storage area.
 

milehigh_7

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Agree, but this

No.
An ethylene precursor gets converted to ethylene by an enzyme in aerated tissues. Ethylene causes enhanced lateral growth. Knees are reaction wood (at high points on the roots), just as are buttresses.
See
The relationship of bald cypress [Taxodium distichum (L.) Richard] knee height to water depth
JL Kernell, GF Levy - Castanea, 1990
and
Variation in Buttressing Form and Stem Volume Ratio of Baldcypress Trees
for example.

@Mellow Mullet and his father have been growing bald cypress and producing knees in pots for many years. The simply submerge the pot in a tub of water that is filled with water and then allowed to evaporate, refilling when most/all of the water has evaporated.

But, at any rate, glad you read scholarly papers too, @BillsBayou !

Something to be said for knowledge that is research-based and not simply tribal... ;-)

But I digress...

@BillsBayou You keep posting this kind of thing. I read every word, BC is one that I know very little about.
 

Potawatomi13

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Literally ripping out my hair. I'm watching Ryan Niel's video "Bald Cypress Primer". I'm at the 1:19:40 mark. Ryan is discussing oxygen and water balance for the bald cypress. My forehead is in my hands and I've got my hair in my fists; falling onto my desk.

First: That's not a bald cypress (taxodium distichum). That is a pond cypress (taxodium ascendens). Even if we go with the controversial "taxodium distichm var. imbricatum", it's still a pond cypress. Look at the leaves. They're going vertical and they're appressed (thin). Bless his heart. Every time he says "bald cypress" I purse my lips.

Second: Bald and pond cypresses form a buttress not because they are swollen with water (as stated in the video), but because they've formed schizogenic intercellular space (aerenchyma) for transport of oxygen. For trees that must withstand periodic flooding, the employment and unemployment cycles for aerenchyma leads to development and redevelopment of that structure. While in continuously flooded trees, the spaces are even larger. Thus, the flooded parts of the plant keep growing the structures required to transport oxygen.

"It is likely that well-developed intercellular spaces [aerenchyma] in the phloem of [continuously flooded] bald cypress saplings permitted oxygen transport to the root system..." Megonigal, Day "Effects of Flooding On Root and Shoot Production of Bald Cypress in Large Experimental Enclosures", Ecology, Vol. 73, No. 4 (Aug., 1992), pp. 1182-1193, Ecological Society of America

"A layer of spongy tissue characterized by loosely packed parenchyma cells and schizogenic intercellular spaces occurred in the outer 1/4 of the phloem of [periodically flooded] plants but often extended to near the cambial layer in the phloem of [continuously flooded] plants."
ibid

"Ethylene, a volitile gaseous plant hormone, increases when plant roots are inundated. The enzyme cellulase then increases, causing cell walls to dissolve in the cortex. As these cell walls decompose air channels called aerenchyma develop in the root and stem of some plants and are thought to aid in oxygen transport from aerial portions of the shoot to the flooded root system"
Chiplis, Dan J., citing earlier works, "Effect of Flooding on Trunk Diameter in Bald Cypress and Its Application as a Bonsai Technique" Bonsai Clubs International, September/October 1990

"Ethylene is also thought to play a roll in stem hypertrophy. Stem hypertrophy is caused by enlargement of cells and increased intercellular spaces. It is a symptomatic reaction to waterlogging believed to improve the plant's tolerance to flooding." ibid

Third: Knees do not exist for gas exchange (as stated in the video). Lenticels do not appear in the developing bark tissue of knees. Their may be some gas exchange, but not enough to say that is their function.

"...we conclude that storage of starch is the major function of baldcypress [sic] knees." [emphasis, mine] Brown, Montz "Baldcypress / The Tree Unique, The Wood Eternal" 1986 - Claitor's Publishing Division

Think of it as a stem potato (like a yam), but on a tree. It's not a snorkel. It stores food in times of plenty and sends the food down to the roots during hard times. Potatoes grown in sunlight produce an excess amount of sugars. The sugars are combined into complex starch molecules for storage. When the plant needs the energy, the starches are broken back down into sugars. In a bald cypress, the knees are there to feed the roots.

I'll be conducting my own multi-year experiment to see if I can grow knees. I have several ideas as to what will influence knee development based partly on some things that I expect will encourage knee development. Unfortunately, I don't have enough room, or funding, to make it a controlled experiment. I'm just going to try a few different things on a few populations of 3 or 4 trees each. I won't be able to definitively say exactly what and why, but I'll be able to say "This is how I did it." (or I'll fail and no knees will form or many trees die. It's going to be exciting!) I'll publish my results (to BonsaiNut and YouTube, of course) in about 10 years. :rolleyes:

Consider contacting Ryan. He is humble and willing to learn if you have valid useful knowledge;).
 
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Any thoughts on growing BC in a flooded field (or containers) to stimulate fluting? Any tips or suggestions to get them to sprout knees?
 

Toraidento

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Literally ripping out my hair. I'm watching Ryan Niel's video "Bald Cypress Primer". I'm at the 1:19:40 mark. Ryan is discussing oxygen and water balance for the bald cypress. My forehead is in my hands and I've got my hair in my fists; falling onto my desk.

First: That's not a bald cypress (taxodium distichum). That is a pond cypress (taxodium ascendens). Even if we go with the controversial "taxodium distichm var. imbricatum", it's still a pond cypress. Look at the leaves. They're going vertical and they're appressed (thin). Bless his heart. Every time he says "bald cypress" I purse my lips.

Second: Bald and pond cypresses form a buttress not because they are swollen with water (as stated in the video), but because they've formed schizogenic intercellular space (aerenchyma) for transport of oxygen. For trees that must withstand periodic flooding, the employment and unemployment cycles for aerenchyma leads to development and redevelopment of that structure. While in continuously flooded trees, the spaces are even larger. Thus, the flooded parts of the plant keep growing the structures required to transport oxygen.

"It is likely that well-developed intercellular spaces [aerenchyma] in the phloem of [continuously flooded] bald cypress saplings permitted oxygen transport to the root system..." Megonigal, Day "Effects of Flooding On Root and Shoot Production of Bald Cypress in Large Experimental Enclosures", Ecology, Vol. 73, No. 4 (Aug., 1992), pp. 1182-1193, Ecological Society of America

"A layer of spongy tissue characterized by loosely packed parenchyma cells and schizogenic intercellular spaces occurred in the outer 1/4 of the phloem of [periodically flooded] plants but often extended to near the cambial layer in the phloem of [continuously flooded] plants." ibid

"Ethylene, a volitile gaseous plant hormone, increases when plant roots are inundated. The enzyme cellulase then increases, causing cell walls to dissolve in the cortex. As these cell walls decompose air channels called aerenchyma develop in the root and stem of some plants and are thought to aid in oxygen transport from aerial portions of the shoot to the flooded root system" Chiplis, Dan J., citing earlier works, "Effect of Flooding on Trunk Diameter in Bald Cypress and Its Application as a Bonsai Technique" Bonsai Clubs International, September/October 1990

"Ethylene is also thought to play a roll in stem hypertrophy. Stem hypertrophy is caused by enlargement of cells and increased intercellular spaces. It is a symptomatic reaction to waterlogging believed to improve the plant's tolerance to flooding." ibid

Third: Knees do not exist for gas exchange (as stated in the video). Lenticels do not appear in the developing bark tissue of knees. Their may be some gas exchange, but not enough to say that is their function.

"...we conclude that storage of starch is the major function of baldcypress [sic] knees." [emphasis, mine] Brown, Montz "Baldcypress / The Tree Unique, The Wood Eternal" 1986 - Claitor's Publishing Division

Think of it as a stem potato (like a yam), but on a tree. It's not a snorkel. It stores food in times of plenty and sends the food down to the roots during hard times. Potatoes grown in sunlight produce an excess amount of sugars. The sugars are combined into complex starch molecules for storage. When the plant needs the energy, the starches are broken back down into sugars. In a bald cypress, the knees are there to feed the roots.

I'll be conducting my own multi-year experiment to see if I can grow knees. I have several ideas as to what will influence knee development based partly on some things that I expect will encourage knee development. Unfortunately, I don't have enough room, or funding, to make it a controlled experiment. I'm just going to try a few different things on a few populations of 3 or 4 trees each. I won't be able to definitively say exactly what and why, but I'll be able to say "This is how I did it." (or I'll fail and no knees will form or many trees die. It's going to be exciting!) I'll publish my results (to BonsaiNut and YouTube, of course) in about 10 years. :rolleyes:
I like Ryan. I can also say, I've watched several of your videos on YouTube. But I've still yet to see anything from you that is close to being refined. Everything I've seen I'd in early stages of development. I'm not saying that what you said is wrong, or that what Ryan said was wrong. I liked your videos, and I think Ryan is definitely worth paying to watch his work. I'd just like to see that some of your trees that are not just out of the swamp. Post up some more stuff on YouTube I'll check it out.
 

Toraidento

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Bird's of a feather, @BillsBayou - interest in tree physiology.

Bald cypress isn't one of my favorite species, but this one by Vaughn Banting, at the Pacific Bonsai Museum is one of may favorite trees.

e2e9179eb6047e9f9c1f4602a3a51da2.jpg
Love this tree too. There is another of Vaughn's similar to this one, but has a knee. I love it also
 
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