Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
I'd like to be flipping a jig at the base of those things.....
Just stay more that a few feet up...don't want any gators dragging you down.
Bald Cypress with knees
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Just stay more that a few feet up...don't want any gators dragging you down.
mat
Chumono
awesome. johng, thanks so much for the amazing insight + photos + descriptive lesson.
Si Nguyen
Omono
As you can see here branches can and do naturally growing at a declining angle...
No, not really. If you look closely again at these trees, you will see that all the live branches has a slight angle upward before starting to droop. They don't come straight out of the trunk or at less than 90 degree, because they will be weak and collapse long before they get too big. If you happened to get these downward branches, they will look better as jins. In nature, the exit angle is a support feature that allows the branches to grow bigger longer. If the sap flow is strong, it will lay down more wood on the bottom side of the branches at the exit angle. Just look at old oak trees with long heavy branches. On a flat-top design, where the top branches go upward, the lower side branches would look more fitting with the top if they also exit at an angle. The problem I see with many bald cypress bonsai is that people wire their young small branches down too early, and they turn out like a pine tree. The branches need to come out of the trunk with a slight rise first, for about 1/2 an inch maybe, depending on the final size of the bonsai, then and only then, should the branches droop down then rise and fall again. If the branch starts out by exiting the trunk downward, like at an acute angle, then it will look strange if you try to bring the tip upward. My scanner is kaput right now or else I would sketch this out for you. The observation that old trees should have downward exiting branches apply only to conifers. In relation to the trunk height, conifers also tend to have short branches, because they would look weird if they go down too long and also weird if they bend up again; while deciduous trees can afford to have longer and more free flowing branches. All because of the exit angle.
Si Nguyen
Omono
That sounds like a cool tree. I would love to see a natural weeping style bald cypress bonsai.
Si Nguyen
Omono
Yeah, I can see that in some of these trees in the wild. But mostly when you see truly old and interesting branches on these cypress, they are always exiting the trunk at an upward angle. Those are the ones that survive and grow old and interesting. The low and scrawny side pointing branches are mostly dead. In a bonsai, those low hanging ones are better as jins. In a bonsai, a deciduous tree with too many downward exitting branches will look like a pine tree.
Leo in N E Illinois
The Professor
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thanks John for the photos, those tree are inspirational too. There is quite a range in natural shapes for Bald Cypress.
drew33998
Masterpiece
the senator
Look up " the senator" pond cypress , Fl.
Look up " the senator" pond cypress , Fl.
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GrimLore
Bonsai Nut alumnus... we miss you
At longwood gardens in pa there is an impressive one lots of pics if you do an image search on longwood gardens bald cypress.
Zyggy
Seed
We have some beautifull T. distitchum at the Bot Gardens in Melbourne, the one growing in the lawn beside the lake has knees untill the gardener with his rideon lawnmower chops them down.
Nearby higher up the hill are mature T. acendens and T. mucronatum neither of which have knees.
I have heard of exposing roots to mimic knees but its not the real thing.
i am currently growing all three from seed (very fast growing, especially with a lot of water/food) I will test out on a 6 yold by sitting in a tray of water to dee what happens.
Nearby higher up the hill are mature T. acendens and T. mucronatum neither of which have knees.
I have heard of exposing roots to mimic knees but its not the real thing.
i am currently growing all three from seed (very fast growing, especially with a lot of water/food) I will test out on a 6 yold by sitting in a tray of water to dee what happens.
GrimLore
Bonsai Nut alumnus... we miss you
I would have thought John Geanangel would have some thoughts or input...
bwaynef
Masterpiece
I would have thought John Geanangel would have some thoughts or input...
See the input above from johng.
Furman University has a nice Japanese Garden with a Bald Cypress with a multitude of knees around it. The SC Botanical Gardens has a few BC w/ knees as well.
I've never seen a naturally occurring knee in a potted BC (until now). For me though, I'm not sure I'd spend much time trying to incorporate any knees into the design. Seems like the scale would be tough to pull off in any way that benefits the tree/pot/display. A well executed BC has enough merit w/o pulling in something that'd be distracting to most people (until you explain to them that this is how they grow ...and this is likely their purpose ...and by then you've lost your audience because all they can see now are the knees).
daygan
Chumono
I would think knees might be more easily incorporated in a forest planting of Bald Cypress...
Scale is actually not a problem when you realize how big they can get in nature...here is one that is nearly 8'.
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rockm
Spuds Moyogi
The visual difference between knees in "real life" and in a bonsai pot are considerable, I think.
Whenever I've seen knees not grown with the tree, but incorporated as separate pieces used with a BC in a pot, I just think they just look, well, out of scale. While they might be huge in a landscape, the scaledown usually doesn't translate well.
Whenever I've seen knees not grown with the tree, but incorporated as separate pieces used with a BC in a pot, I just think they just look, well, out of scale. While they might be huge in a landscape, the scaledown usually doesn't translate well.
bwaynef
Masterpiece
Don't take this as a dare or anything, but I'd imagine if you try to incorporate that, your planting would suffer. There'd have to be too much explanation of what the heck that thing is.
Perhaps...but the truth of the matter is that anyone with any tree experience is going to recognize it right way...just look at all the comments this thread has received...I doubt there are many who frequent this site that don't recognize what a BC knee is so i am really not sure what your point is... as for those without a clue...who really cares..they are going to lack appreciation anyhow so why does it matter...
bottom line is that I have yet to figure out how to make cypress grow knees in anything more than a hit or miss situation....so most of this is mut point anyhow.
bwaynef
Masterpiece
If people see my trees, at least for the immediate future, I can count on them NOT knowing much about trees. It doesn't take any explanation of what's going on when they see a nice shohin maple, a flowering satsuki azalea, or a pine. A twisty juniper doesn't usually take much explanation. A rather odd growth visually dominating a tree would be where they'd tend to focus their attention rather than where I'd prefer it to be: on the tree. The same tree w/o the knee would be appreciated by my audience with less explanation.
If someone's audience is a little more versed in trees that's fine, but its a different audience than I have ...hence my perspective given here and above. (Not that everyone needs to design their trees to be enjoyed by other people. If someone thinks a knee would add to their design ...or even if they just want it because there aren't many, go for it.)
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
"Perhaps...but the truth of the matter is that anyone with any tree experience is going to recognize it right way...just look at all the comments this thread has received...I doubt there are many who frequent this site that don't recognize what a BC knee is so i am really not sure what your point is... as for those without a clue...who really cares..they are going to lack appreciation anyhow so why does it matter..."
I think this is a huge leap. The people commenting are mostly folks who are extremely familiar with BC and it's growing habits. I've repeatedly seen posts over the years from people outside the species' growing zone who have absolutely no idea what a cypress knee looks like. Some mistake the fluted ridges on the trunk for knees...Put a big old sawed off knee next to a BC in a pot and It get a big "huh?" from lots of folks.
I think this is a huge leap. The people commenting are mostly folks who are extremely familiar with BC and it's growing habits. I've repeatedly seen posts over the years from people outside the species' growing zone who have absolutely no idea what a cypress knee looks like. Some mistake the fluted ridges on the trunk for knees...Put a big old sawed off knee next to a BC in a pot and It get a big "huh?" from lots of folks.
Beetleman72
Mame
I've seen plenty of bc's with knees that formed in the pot, well plenty is an overstatement but I have seen a few at the nursery that I bought mine from. I picked one without knees because i thought it had better nebari, but they turned out to be weird roots above the base of the trunk. Next one I get ill get with knees and post lots of pics.
jake4bonsai
Seed
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I have a Bald Cypress I collected two years ago, I repotted it yesterday and found several roots that have risen up into the starts of knee shapes but had not quite broke the surface of the soil. This tree is so vigorous that it root bounds by fall each year pushing itself up out of the pot over an inch each time. When I collected it I sawed all of the roots completely off making the bottom of the tree perfectly flat so I would not have to try to do it over time to fit flat and firm in a pot, I also removed all the branches which weren't many because the tree was over 12ft tall maybe taller. I put it in a high quality potting medium and kept the tree in water it first entire year and by fall in its first year it had 4-5 inches of wrapped roots pushing it up out of the pot. The next spring it was repotted into a 5" deep drum mica pot into the same potting soil and by fall again the same thing. Yesterday I repotted it again into a 3" deep studded bonsai pot and into bonsai soil because the tree has its primary and secondary branching so all it needs now is foliage and crown development along with more ramification which can all be accomplished in a bonsai and bonsai soil. I just have to make sure I don't feed it as much as I did the first two years. Anyway back to the knee looking roots. I read and I cannot remember the article but ill find it again but I read that knees are formed in bonsai pots and nature from roots running out of room to grow. In nature bald cypress usually grow in large quantities together and the roots grow so fast and thicken quickly and they get all tangled and inner twined and this binding of roots causes them to not be able grow out ward anymore leaving only room to grow upward causing knees. Same thing in a bonsai pot. Its said it usually takes a tree in a pot at least 3 straight years of binding each year or continually being bound for this to happen. I had my doubts but now that I've seen these roots rising up into knee shaped roots on my own tree it seems it may be correct. Ill know for sure and know more over what ever happens in the next few seasons but I am hoping this is the case. I know there are people out there with natural knees developed in bonsai cultivation but the numbers seem to be very low. I believe this may be because either people don't know what to believe so they don't even try, or they're just too impatient, or just don't want to leave their trees bound for that period of time due to being afraid the health of the tree will decline. Despite all the dispute over the subject I don't believe knees are impossible to get in bonsai cultivation. Its just like when Kimura flipped a juniper upside down and made the top the bottom and the bottom the top everyone thought he was a magician and now its so practical and easy to do that almost any fairly experienced artist knows how to do this and therefore its not done as much anymore. It will be the same with knees, either everyone will know how to get them and everyone will have them or people will stop trying to be the one to have discovered how to produce knees and no one will care anymore. All new news quickly becomes old news. I think either you have a tree vigorous enough to produce knees in a pot or you don't and it will never have them. I don't understand why people spend so much time arguing over this subject and not spending that wasted time trying to get knees on their trees. There also is absolutely nothing wrong with creating them artificially if one can get them to look believable and natural. Bonsai is the art of illusion anyway!
