Big box bonsai mix

[canoeguide]

This isn’t a dig specifically at him, but I don’t agree with this. He has a lot of branch loss and weak growths. His tropicals look great, but some of his deciduous and conifers have been lackluster. He has lost a fair number of trees.

That said, some of the above is from his harsh winter and subpar overwintering system.

I have to say that his turface/perlite blend inspired me with the idea that you don't have to use expensive components to grow beautiful trees.

 

[TN_Jim]

8822 absorbs it’s weight in water and has a higher CEC than akadama.

Lava has an extremely high porosity.

Water retention, access to micro/macro elements, and oxygen availability is ideal mix for most species whatever the mix.

Species that love water like American hornbeam Carpinus caroliniana I put in pure 8822 and sifted pine bark with success. Here is one wild collected that I’ve let the leader grow this year. It is presently taller than me.

 

[Orion_metalhead]

I have been using 8822 for all my trees with a little bit of peat moss added in. Havent had drainage problems at all. Sometimes the 8822 dries out too fast in small pots mid summer, hence the addition of peat moss.

Since i changed my fertilization method, i have been very happy with how my trees look end of year. Roots growing out of pots like bonkers.

For those saying it holds too much water, for pines for example, just dont water those trees as much... i have some very healthy pitch pine seedlings growing right now.

 

[BonsaiNaga13]

Nigel Saunders uses ratio 50/50 - perlite and turface,
All his trees looks fabulous.....
That's my 2 cents
Myself - i used cat litter and perlite- 50/50, sometimes i add some organic material(sifted pine bark) for trees that like a lot of moisture, no complains so far, cheap and effective!

He doesn't use turface he uses Safe T Sorb and calls it turface. Safe T Sorb works fine for my plants. I tried the crushed lava rock and it didn't work for me. I use like a 30% pine bark 30% perlite and 40% safe T Sorb but all my plants are seedlings currently. Safe T Sorb is like $8 a 40 pound bag

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

8822 is fossilized diatoms - nearly pure silica, but not totally pure, it has some phosphorous, but fairly low calcium. Largely chemically inert. NOT AT ALL Like Akadama in chemistry. Its function is different.

Turface is fired (calcined clay). The pores are smaller than the pores in 8822. It contains more calcium and magnesium. Not as chemically inert as DE 8822. Though more or less inert for practical purposes. The clay of turface is originally from LIMESTONE,

Perlite - expanded rock - heated then popped like popcorn. I forget the source material, very similar to a light pumice both chemically and in terms of structure.


Akadama - a natural clay derived Lava. This is a unique process, there is nothing like it. There are lava derived clays in the Cascade mountains, but none are currently being mined for "akadama''. Kanuma is a similar lava derived clay. Usually Akadama layer is above a layer of Kanuma. Both clays are unique and not at all like DE, 8833 or any other material currently on the market for bonsai media.

You don't "need" akadama or kanuma to grow bonsai well. Both products work well for bonsai, and are cheap and easily available in Japan. This is why they use it. It works, and is cheap and available.

We in North America, just need to work out what works and is cheap and easily available.

 

[Woocash]

Nice one folks. I had thought it was to do with porosity and absorbency, but there are so many different combos it’s a bit mind boggling.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Nice one folks. I had thought it was to do with porosity and absorbency, but there are so many different combos it’s a bit mind boggling.

Yes mind boggling diversity. In some ways, the difficulties of really understanding function of each component in a mix, probably lead to the almost cult like status of Akadama and Kanuma. Sometimes it is easier to just import what the Japanese use, than try to create an equally effective locally sourced mix design for bonsai. The extra expense of importing from Japan what is to them their local 'dirt', is just the cost of doing business for those that do not want to tackle the science of soils.

You can dispute, the soils the Japanese use work well for the Japanese. We in North America just need to figure out what works here.

Read @Smoke older posts on potting media and soils. In the archives there is lots of good information.

In the mean time, in the USA, shipping pumice from the west coast to the east coast is still cheaper and less problematic than importing Akadama and Kanuma from Japan.

Growstone GS-2 Soil Aerator - is a man made product from recycled glass, under a different label sold as a light weight aggregate for concrete used in bridges and other weight sensitive structures. It is glass that has been remelted and caused to foam to entrain air bubbles. It used to be carried by Home Depot. Don't know if it is still available.

Perlite is a good pumice substitute.

Regardless, choose your potting media to compliment the water chemistry of your water supply, and your preferred fertilizer program. If you use soybean meal based cake type fertilizers, then an all inorganic substrate will work better for you. If you use liquid chemical fertilizer, then you should include an organic component like fir bark.

Also, climate plays a big factor in potting media choice. In the desert southwest one would make sure there is significant soil moisture holding components. In the Pacific Northwest - temperate rainforest region, water holding capacity would need to be significantly less. In the North Central and Northeastern North America - freeze thaw cycling is a factor, media that fractures into fine sand after repeated freezing and thawing (soft grades of Akadama for example) these need to be avoided.

So you can see how this all gets complicated.

Start with a piece a paper, make notes about your specific climate, water chemistry, prefered fertilizer, and from this figure out what traits your potting media needs to be. Then go through components available in your area and see what can work.

 

[Woocash]

Yes mind boggling diversity. In some ways, the difficulties of really understanding function of each component in a mix, probably lead to the almost cult like status of Akadama and Kanuma. Sometimes it is easier to just import what the Japanese use, than try to create an equally effective locally sourced mix design for bonsai. The extra expense of importing from Japan what is to them their local 'dirt', is just the cost of doing business for those that do not want to tackle the science of soils.

You can dispute, the soils the Japanese use work well for the Japanese. We in North America just need to figure out what works here.

Read @Smoke older posts on potting media and soils. In the archives there is lots of good information.

In the mean time, in the USA, shipping pumice from the west coast to the east coast is still cheaper and less problematic than importing Akadama and Kanuma from Japan.

Growstone GS-2 Soil Aerator - is a man made product from recycled glass, under a different label sold as a light weight aggregate for concrete used in bridges and other weight sensitive structures. It is glass that has been remelted and caused to foam to entrain air bubbles. It used to be carried by Home Depot. Don't know if it is still available.

Perlite is a good pumice substitute.

Regardless, choose your potting media to compliment the water chemistry of your water supply, and your preferred fertilizer program. If you use soybean meal based cake type fertilizers, then an all inorganic substrate will work better for you. If you use liquid chemical fertilizer, then you should include an organic component like fir bark.

Also, climate plays a big factor in potting media choice. In the desert southwest one would make sure there is significant soil moisture holding components. In the Pacific Northwest - temperate rainforest region, water holding capacity would need to be significantly less. In the North Central and Northeastern North America - freeze thaw cycling is a factor, media that fractures into fine sand after repeated freezing and thawing (soft grades of Akadama for example) these need to be avoided.

So you can see how this all gets complicated.

Start with a piece a paper, make notes about your specific climate, water chemistry, prefered fertilizer, and from this figure out what traits your potting media needs to be. Then go through components available in your area and see what can work.

Yeah I get why people would want to import tried and tested materials. Over here in the UK there just doesn’t seem to be any, or at least very few substrates that are manufactured in this country which is something i’d like to use, if possible. The moler clay is diatomaceous but comes from Denmark and the suitable lavas I have found seem to come from Iceland at the closest distance. It’s not the be all and end all, but you know, keeping footprints low and trying to stay a little environmentally conscious is not easy with specialist substrates.

Aside from that, you say climate is a large factor but in a temperate country with ever increasing temperatures and longer spells of dry weather is it better to go for a more water retentive mix or, based on the fact that we have had large amounts of rainfall recently after a year or two of relative dryness should I be airing on the side of standard UK expectations? Rather, is it really that much of a big deal to go with 100% moler, for example?

I even found a UK made material called Lytag which is made from coal ash, a byproduct of power stations and is made ina similar way to Leca, as far as I can tell. I can’t find PH levels etc but it does have some record as being used in horticultural circumstances.

I think trial and error is the order of the day, probably, so thank you for taking the time to explain some things.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Yeah I get why people would want to import tried and tested materials. Over here in the UK there just doesn’t seem to be any, or at least very few substrates that are manufactured in this country which is something i’d like to use, if possible. The moler clay is diatomaceous but comes from Denmark and the suitable lavas I have found seem to come from Iceland at the closest distance. It’s not the be all and end all, but you know, keeping footprints low and trying to stay a little environmentally conscious is not easy with specialist substrates.

Aside from that, you say climate is a large factor but in a temperate country with ever increasing temperatures and longer spells of dry weather is it better to go for a more water retentive mix or, based on the fact that we have had large amounts of rainfall recently after a year or two of relative dryness should I be airing on the side of standard UK expectations? Rather, is it really that much of a big deal to go with 100% moler, for example?

I even found a UK made material called Lytag which is made from coal ash, a byproduct of power stations and is made ina similar way to Leca, as far as I can tell. I can’t find PH levels etc but it does have some record as being used in horticultural circumstances.

I think trial and error is the order of the day, probably, so thank you for taking the time to explain some things.

Take a serious look at what UK bonsai artists and bonsai vendors are using. Components that are affordable, work well, and available are likely to be in their mixes.

Key in making a mix work well is the size and shape of the particles. This is separate from the chemistry. Goal is uniform particle size combined with irregular shapes. In the USA calcined clay called Turface, and expanded shale product Haydite® both tend to have rectangular shapes, flat on opposite surfaces. When used as a single component mix, they tend to settle, compact and loose air voids. Bad for bonsai roots.

Similar, glass beads used for sand blasting had been proposed as a bonsai media, the uniform round spheres have zero interlocking. No matter how creatively you wire your tree into the pot, the slightest breeze or bump will knock the tree over, or uproot it entirely.

Each is the extreme, but a good mix is a blend of different shapes of particles, all of roughly uniform size. You get enough interlocking to hold the tree in a pot. Yet the particles that are more round prevent excess compaction.

So a mixture of shapes is critical for a mix. This is why I never recommend a 100% single component mix. Usually I use at least 2 components, most often a 3 component mix.

Your Lytag product may be just fine as a component of a mix, but do use at least one more component.

Plan your mix for your ability to keep to a watering schedule and your climate for the next 5 years.

 

[Woocash]

Brilliant, Thanks Leo. It makes so much more sense when broken down like that.

Funny, it’s no wonder that there are so many, “help I’ve killled my mallsai” people. I was looking at some in a massive chain store yesterday, they were in standard compost and said to water sparingly but don’t allow to dry out. Keep on a windowsill. You would think it’s sound enough advice and simple enough then you come on to BNut and BOOM. Mind blown.

Discussing soil particle size is not something I, or any beginner would likely have expected in the beginning.

 

[Eckhoffw]

PART 01
Wow
I’ve been sleeping on this thread.
So much Great information on these components/soils.

After catching up on all this info, I’m almost hesitant to even post this floor dry experiment I’ve done.

when I started this thread, I had purchased some oil dry premium floor drying compound.
After some feedback, I was about to pitch it.
but I didn’t.....
Anyways, I went out and got a sack of #8822
I’ve been using it since.

.....decided since I had already sifted the Oil dry premium out, I’d test it side by side with the Napa.
Here’s my comparison.

oh, I’m doing this In parts because I don’t want to accidentally lose this before I post it.

Unlike Leo, I’m a poor writer.

 

[Eckhoffw]

PART 02

Ok. so I took 1/2 cup of each and put them in some plastic jars.
filled half way with water.
For about 10 weeks, I froze and thawed them a few times a week.
Between cycles, I would shake a bit

Im trying to keep 8822 on the left and Oil dry on the right.

 

[Eckhoffw]

PART 03

Today I got a chance to drain these jars and see how they’ve stood up.

Poured out the contents into a colanders with a coffee filter.
The 8822 actually took a bit longer to drain.

Aside from the color, the 2 look very similar in breakdown, muck, and such.

I should note that another motivator for doing this was that I do not like how dusty 8822 is.
Not a fan of that silica dust.
The Oil Dry premium in almost dust free.
Floor Dry Brownies.

 

[Eckhoffw]

PART 04

Some more pics.


The roller test.
Again, both seemed to hold up the same.
Also did the ol’ fingernail crush test with the same results.

 

[Eckhoffw]

PART 04 _ Conclusion

I’ve decided I’ll just list the pros and cons of each.

Napa’s Floor dry #8822 (DE)
-easy to acquire
- inexpensive @ 10$ a bag @ 24 qts.
- documented performance

Cons.
- dusty as all hell. Use a mask.
- relatively smaller particle size
- cost more than Oil Dry Premium
- dusty as all hell

Oil Dry Premium (calcined clay)
- cheap! 5$ for 25lbs.
- slightly larger particle size.
- near dustless even while sieving.
- at Menards where I frequent regularly.

In conclusion, I found both products to perform similar. I did like the absence of dust with the Oil Dry.
I may just pick and choose what I use based on what color soil I want.

 

[PABonsai]

PART 04 _ Conclusion

I’ve decided I’ll just list the pros and cons of each.

Napa’s Floor dry #8822 (DE)
-easy to acquire
- inexpensive @ 10$ a bag @ 24 qts.
- documented performance

Cons.
- dusty as all hell. Use a mask.
- relatively smaller particle size
- cost more than Oil Dry Premium
- dusty as all hell

Oil Dry Premium (calcined clay)
- cheap! 5$ for 25lbs.
- slightly larger particle size.
- near dustless even while sieving.
- at Menards where I frequent regularly.

In conclusion, I found both products to perform similar. I did like the absence of dust with the Oil Dry.
I may just pick and choose what I use based on what color soil I want.

How many quarts does 25 lb of the oil dry yield?

 

[Eckhoffw]

How many quarts does 25 lb of the oil dry yield?

Ahah. Yeah, if this where liquid, 25 lbs would only be around 12 qts. But since it’s not, I’m not sure. I wish they used the same method of measurement.
The Napa bag is bigger though. You do get more product.

However, after sifting to 3mm, I came up with almost the same amount of each. -with much more left over 8822 fines. I have about 2.5 gallons of the stuff, not sure what I’ll do with that. Maybe dry the floor.
Could be that the bag of Napa I got was beaten up a bit or something. Lots of dust.

Again, not trying to sway anyone into using one over the other, - Not getting paid by Oil Dry or anything- Just wanted time share what I’ve found.
If Napa isn’t available, Maybe another possibility for cheapskates like me.

 

[sorce]

Nice.

I'd like to see a couple seeds grown in em.

Sorce

 

[sorce]

You know what I was thinking....

Calcined is kiln fired yes? So there can be quite the variable consistency per batch. I don't think there is a requirement for the product to be calcined to any degree, just calcined.
So you could get a softer bag.

I think the same holds true for DE.
Don't know how "hard" it is!
There just be a range.

I think we have all experienced the range, it's here in text.

Pertinent questions are then...
What's the range?
Which is more consistent?
Or better, which can we more consistently identify as on the harder side of the range?

Thanks for this, it's making some questions become clear.

Sorce

 

[Eckhoffw]

After a bit more thought, I remember that I yielded approximately 4 gallons in the pail of oil dry. So that ends up being around 16 quarts.