Bjorn's You Tube VS Web Page Single Flush Pine Advice

[clem]

Not the same work.
Spring candle pruning from the video is done when needles are just visible, this is to balance the strength of this year’s emerging candles.
Summer candle pruning from the website is done to induce bud formation for next year’s candles.

Don't you think those 2 technics will lead to the same consequences ? candle pruned in spring or in summer, the scot pine will produce new buds at the tip and the strength will be balanced ?

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Don't you think those 2 technics will lead to the same consequences ? candle pruned in spring or in summer, the scot pine will produce new buds at the tip and the strength will be balanced ?

Candle-pruned too late in the summer, scots pine will not produce a new bud at the tip of the cut site. It may produce new buds at the base of the current year’s growth, or it may abandon that shoot.

 

[clem]

Candle-pruned too late in the summer, scots pine will not produce a new bud at the tip of the cut site. It may produce new buds at the base of the current year’s growth, or it may abandon that shoot.

Ok i'll make a test (candle-prune in late summer) to see how it reacts.
I honestly still don't understand the difference (in terms of result) between cutting the candles in the begining of summer and pinching the candles in spring (in term of result). I guess pinching sooner the candles (in spring) leads to balance sooner the candles strength so it is maybe better for that objective ?

 

[clem]

For example Ryan Neil cut the candles of his scot pines in mid-summer (beginning of july), to balance strength, and to remove the candles in excess (to let just 2 candles of the same strength & well placed) ->

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I study with Bjorn, and would not bring in another pro’s approach to justify or refute what Bjorn teaches, I just shared what he said on this topic when I was there a couple weeks ago. However, based on what you posted from Ryan, I don’t see any real differences between them.

I think a test in your own garden is well-merited. You seem methodical in your work and take good photos.

 

[leatherback]

So the sheaths begin shedding in early mid April and finish shedding in mid June? That seems very unlikely to me. If that's the case, I feel like Bjorn should have mentioned it.

My take on it is different goals.

I honestly still don't understand the difference (in terms of result) between cutting the candles in the begining of summer and pinching the candles in spring (in term of result). I guess pinching sooner the candles (in spring) leads to balance sooner the candles strength so it is maybe better for that objective ?

IF I understand scots pine well enough, trimming early on results in better balance in growth and is good maintenance.
Trimming later in the year gives the risk of not getting a terminal bud. However, on a strong (!) scots, it can also result in massive backbudding. I have been trimming "late" and seen rise of multiple backbuds on individual branches.

 

[clem]

I study with Bjorn, and would not bring in another pro’s approach to justify or refute what Bjorn teaches, I just shared what he said on this topic when I was there a couple weeks ago. However, based on what you posted from Ryan, I don’t see any real differences between them.

I think a test in your own garden is well-merited. You seem methodical in your work and take good photos.

yes, we all have our "teacher" or "master". Mine is Ryan and he often says that he prefers to experiment by himself before being affirmative on a technic, so i think i'll make tests by myself on my scot pines (in my garden or in the wild).

 

[clem]

My take on it is different goals.

IF I understand scots pine well enough, trimming early on results in better balance in growth and is good maintenance.
Trimming later in the year gives the risk of not getting a terminal bud. However, on a strong (!) scots, it can also result in massive backbudding. I have been trimming "late" and seen rise of multiple backbuds on individual branches.

Interesting. What sounds surprising to me, is when Bjorn says that you can even loose the shoot if you cut the candle (the shoot) too late in summer. Never seen that so i prefer to try by myself next summer in August. September is known to be a good period to trim scot pines too, in order to get a good backbudding before winter.

 

[Colorado]

yes, we all have our "teacher" or "master". Mine is Ryan and he often says that he prefers to experiment by himself before being affirmative on a technic, so i think i'll make tests by myself on my scot pines (in my garden or in the wild).

Clem, I think the techniques from Bjorn and Ryan are the consistent. Ryan uses the terms “pinching” and “pruning” rather than “spring pruning” and “summer pruning.”

As Brian mentioned, these are two separate techniques performed at different times of year.

My takeaways from the Mirai version is that PINCHING (aka spring candle pruning) transitions energy from strong to medium to weak interior buds. Refinement technique.

While PRUNING (aka summer candle pruning) stimulates new buds and is a more drastic redirection of energy. More of a development technique.

 

[sorce]

so i think i'll make tests by myself on my scot pines

That's the ticket!

What a wonderful relief the way this thread went, further into the realm of nuance rather than trying to "find exact rules".

I believe the problem lies in what we know to be the "exact rules" or, "the book" (pdf lol) on JBP.

However, once you get the "candle cutting" jist, you realize (or don't, usually don't) all the nuances available and differences in timing and amounts (removed) required to actually achieve a finished project closest to what we were shooting for. Attention to Detail.

Because we all follow these basic rules of JBP, it is engrained, so the nuances actually become communally, what we discuss and pay attention to.

Because there is no "book" on single flush pines, we are left without a basic framework on which to understand and discuss the nuances of them.

It becomes entirely about specific goals, specific goals which no one ever seems to think about enough to give any details on, which leaves the discussion mostly a guessing game.

In regards to...

(in my garden or in the wild).

I think this is an excellent idea, bit it is important to remember that we have little or no information on the "before" for trees in the wild.

This is the large part of why our discussions get confused, because we MUST know before treatment, AND the future goals, in order to make these important, highly nuanced decisions.

Sheath.

Sorce

 

[mrcasey]

Interesting. What sounds surprising to me, is when Bjorn says that you can even loose the shoot if you cut the candle (the shoot) too late in summer. Never seen that so i prefer to try by myself next summer in August. September is known to be a good period to trim scot pines too, in order to get a good backbudding before winter.

Here is a question and response about this from Michael Hagedorn's blog

Casey: I’ve seen some practitioners online teach that back budding on many single flush pines (in development) can be achieved by letting the candles fully elongate and gather strength in spring and early summer. When the new growth hardens off, it can be cut back either entirely or left with only a couple pairs of the current year’s needles. Do you agree with this method? Does it work for both p. parviflora and p. sylvestris?

Crataegus: That technique may work on a young or very vigorous in-development plant, though I’d be cautious of using the complete removal of shoots as a maintenance technique for old trees. I do not use it myself. You can get a lot of budding on the plant, needle buds and the like, if the tree is young enough / vigorous enough, as it must produce a bud, or die. If the tree is an old established bonsai it might just choose the later option…hence I would be very hesitant to use this on single flush pines of any sort. Leaving some needles as the second option would be safer, but it’s still a very strong technique, and is not used in Japan for old tree maintenance.

Reply

 

[leatherback]

What sounds surprising to me, is when Bjorn says that you can even loose the shoot if you cut the candle (the shoot) too late in summer.

Last summer I pruned a bunch of scots in the nursery where I try to learn a few things. There the raw material gets trimmed in August. But these are trees that can grow wild for the year. And trimming is back into needled areas. NOT to bare wood.

 

[clem]

Last summer I pruned a bunch of scots in the nursery where I try to learn a few things. There the raw material gets trimmed in August. But these are trees that can grow wild for the year. And trimming is back into needled areas. NOT to bare wood.

Of course, it isn't a good idea to let a branch without any needles, except if you plan to make a jin ^^

 

[mrcasey]

Is there an instance or a reason to ever perform both candle cutting or pinching in Spring and shoot cutting in Summer
of the same year on the same tree? Like Shoot cutting in Summer on semi-weak branches and candle cutting or pinching on stronger branches? I personally never shoot cut after the candles open, always pinch off a
percentage based on vigour or not at all per each individual candle or branch vigour.

Although I can't back it up with air-tight logic or hard science, my gut tells me that if you want strong back budding, you're better off not pinching in spring, but letting the tree accumulate "energy" and pruning in mid-late summer before the point of no return.

 

[Japonicus]

Although I can't back it up with air-tight logic or hard science, my gut tells me that if you want strong back budding, you're better off not pinching in spring, but letting the tree accumulate "energy" and pruning in mid-late summer before the point of no return.

I tried this on my JWP bonsai, and got really long bare necks, at least with the cultivar I have.
I decided to go back to pinching the candles down. This happened 2 years in a row, the 2nd year I made sure not to
feed in the Spring, and still had long bare necks, which in no time would make each branch more and more leggy.
I would like to induce back budding on my JWP, which I know is still different from Scots, but still single flush.
My dwarf EWP has some back buds maturing on "old" wood (no needles several years old branches, smooth bark) and I always
pinch the candles on it. I have no reasoning for the back budding in the inconsistent locations, but one branch
in particular has back buds evenly placed on a branch same distance from the trunk.

 

[Alain BERTRAND]

Interesting. What sounds surprising to me, is when Bjorn says that you can even loose the shoot if you cut the candle (the shoot) too late in summer. Never seen that so i prefer to try by myself next summer in August. September is known to be a good period to trim scot pines too, in order to get a good backbudding before winter.

I have never seen the case either when you trim back to year n growth during September or October of the same n year. I have seen losses of branches only when I cut back to n-1 or n-2 growth. You can even trim back during winter, the new buds will be formed at the beginning of the next spring which causes the tree to be late and that is why I prefer to avoid.

 

[clem]

I have never seen the case either when you trim back to year n growth during September or October of the same n year. I have seen losses of branches only when I cut back to n-1 or n-2 growth. You can even trim back during winter, the new buds will be formed at the beginning of the next spring which causes the tree to be late and that is why I prefer to avoid.

Thanks Alain for your experienced feedback. As single flush pines, scott pines are classified with JWP (pinus densiflora) but i think scotts pine are stronger than JWP. What do you think ? For example, in my father's garden in Brittany where scott pines are very happy to grow, on young (less than 20 years old) and strong scott pines in the ground, you can have 70cm (30 inches) long shoots and, IMO, probably a second flush if you remove candles on those strong specimens.

 

[clem]

I have seen losses of branches only when I cut back to n-1 or n-2 growth.

Was it on weak branches ? or even on strong branches ?

 

[Alain BERTRAND]

Only weak ones.

 

[Forestcat]

I got that, but Bjorn's Scott's pines shouldn't have been behaving so differently from one year to the next unless they were sick. If they were, shouldn't he have mentioned it?

I have several different species and cultivars of single flush pine and the candles develop at different times and rates, spread out over a month.