Bunjin pinus

[WesB]

Due on a repot and I’ll probably take the top couple of roots when it happens. Following the RN methods for double flushing starting this year.

 

[Dav4]

I assume RN would want you to get some wire on that one before you re-pot and maybe place the branches in a more appropriate space... maybe some needle plucking, too...

 

[WesB]

From what I can tell the first round of needle plucking wouldn't happen until the first flush has occurred, then pluck new and old mixed. That would put the needle work some weeks after the repot. With wire, early spring or fall says the data, if wiring before the re potting can happen followed weeks later by the reduction of flush #1 needles then that would set me up for the fert schedule leading in to but not surpassing May. 2+ years in the pot so the soil surely has to be changed. Who knows?

 

[Adair M]

From what I can tell the first round of needle plucking wouldn't happen until the first flush has occurred, then pluck new and old mixed. That would put the needle work some weeks after the repot. With wire, early spring or fall says the data, if wiring before the re potting can happen followed weeks later by the reduction of flush #1 needles then that would set me up for the fert schedule leading in to but not surpassing May. 2+ years in the pot so the soil surely has to be changed. Who knows?

Clearly not you.

Only two years in the pot? Doesn’t necessarily need repotting just because of the time in the pot. It depends on how the potting had been done before. Which, frankly, doesn’t look good.

So, it probably DOES need a repot, most likely a half bare root repot.

You should pull all the OLD needles before spring growth starts. By old, I mean needles that grew PRIOR to 2018. Pull the 2017s and older.

If there are places where three or more branches merge (or grow from a single point), you should thin to two.

If you repot, you can begin fertilizing about 3 or 4 weeks after you repot. It’s important to fertilize in the spring.

I have no idea what your idea about “plucking new and old mixed” is all about.

Double flush pines are decandled ( new spring growth removed) in early summer.

If you don’t repot, it’s a good time to wire, right after decandling. If you decandle, wait until later in the fall, after the new summer shoots have hardened off. That’s when to pull the 2018 needles, thin the new 2019 summer shoots to two, and wire.

 

[WesB]

Why be a dick head Martin?

 

[WesB]

I assume RN would want you to get some wire on that one before you re-pot and maybe place the branches in a more appropriate space... maybe some needle plucking, too...

The hitch in my timeline is he doesn’t mention starting with a repotting or wiring within his 2 year lecture. I’m wondering if wiring now since you brought it up and repotting late next week after the 3 degrees vortex passes is the right move. Waiting then another week or more (mid March) to begin needle reduction and the fert cycle. The needle reduction can be done anytime of year and where the RN lecture begins.

So, if it’s safe to wire then repot before entering the day 1 that sounds a lot more fun than waiting until September to bend some things.

A shot of my notes so far and I’m including the lecture here. Exciting stuff!

 

[WesB]

I have no idea what your idea about “plucking new and old mixed” is all about.

It’s about not weakening the tree more than necessary along with overly decreasing the hormone count.. so I’m told.

 

[Adair M]

Oh, I see.

The whole hormone thing has no evidence to support it.

I know of many fantastic JBP that stay perfectly healthy year after year that get their old needles pulled every fall.

The purpose of needle pulling are: 1) weakening selective areas of the tree to promote balance; 2) open up the foliage structure to allow light to penetrate the canopy and keep interior foliage alive; 3) to make it easier to wire; 4) to remove old diseased and damaged needles that carry pests and fungus.

There are many techniques for doing the “weakening for balance”.

I’ve seen that Ryan Neal lecture, and yes he does say something about old needles and hormones in it. I have asked several other Japanese trained masters about it, and they all say they will pull all the old needles every fall. On the weakest branchlets they may save some to help them get stronger, but it’s not for hormones.

 

[Adair M]

Why be a dick head Martin?

Sorry, but your post was showing confusion. So the “who knows?” Naturally led me to “the OP doesn’t!”

Here’s the thing... you watch the videos and Ryan talks about a lot of stuff, and you get all excited and you want to do this, and that, and this technique and that technique... and where do you start? There is a JBP cycle for established trees. But your tree is raw stock. How do you start? At what point of the cycle?

The best way is to start slow. Just do half of what you really want to do! Then let the tree adjust to its new situation. Doing too much at once is a recipe for disaster.

 

[Dav4]

The hitch in my timeline is he doesn’t mention starting with a repotting or wiring within his 2 year lecture. I’m wondering if wiring now since you brought it up and repotting late next week after the 3 degrees vortex passes is the right move. Waiting then another week or more (mid March) to begin needle reduction and the fert cycle. The needle reduction can be done anytime of year and where the RN lecture begins.

So, if it’s safe to wire then repot before entering the day 1 that sounds a lot more fun than waiting until September to bend some things.

A shot of my notes so far and I’m including the lecture here. Exciting stuff!

All I know is most bonsai don't look good with straight branches and the longer a tree goes without getting movement placed where it's needed, the less satisfying the results will be when the attempt is done... and wiring is much easier with less needles on the branches. Without knowing where you are, I can't comment on when to re-pot other then to say it should be done after the wire is placed and the old needles are pulled. Many of my pines have swelling buds, so re-potting them and continuing for the next few weeks has started here in N GA. I'm not a big fan of working according to a calendar. There are better times to wire or re-pot or prune, etc.. The trick is to understand WHY those times are better and adjust your timing based on what your trees are telling you. I have no problem wiring a pine this time of year as long as the buds aren't swelling... swelling buds are easily damage/knocked off. Anyway, developing a bonsai is a multi year marathon no matter how good you are, but there's usually no penalty for doing some things (like wiring) at a time perhaps not considered ideal but otherwise not dangerous.

 

[Adair M]

True, Dave. JBP can be wired anytime. Some times are better than others, that’s because there are times when it’s really easy to damage young needles or soft buds. But, if you know what you’re doing, and are careful, you can wire anytime.

 

[Wilson]

Looks like a nice piece of material to start with. Dave and Adair are dispensing great advice to you, and believe me it's priceless to have these guys take the time to help out. I have been learning so much with this forum over the last few years, and no video can really compare to the firsthand advice you get here. Learning how to manage double flush(this term always makes me laugh) pines is super interesting, as there is so much going on in development. Enjoy the work, and share the updates with us.??

 

[coh]

I love Ryan's videos and have been a mirai member for well over a year now. His advice seems to be generally spot on and if you follow the process he outlines you should do well. That said...he
has some beliefs that don't seem to mesh with generally accepted practice/wisdom. One is the hormone thing with old pine needles. There are others, he often talks about auxin being
generated in the root tips (which it is) and carried in the "water stream" to the shoot tips where it accumulates in the stronger areas. That doesn't seem to be correct based on everything
else I've heard/read (which indicates the primary source of auxin in the shoot tips is...the shoot tips). But he keeps repeating it. So beware of some of his explanations.

 

[Tycoss]

Adair knows cultivation and refinement techniques with double flush pines as well as anyone. Look over his old posts to see the health and refinement of his plants. They might not be your style, but I’d take his cultivation advice seriously without getting snarky.

 

[WesB]

Adair knows cultivation and refinement techniques with double flush pines as well as anyone. Look over his old posts to see the health and refinement of his plants. They might not be your style, but I’d take his cultivation advice seriously without getting snarky.

I already know who he is and the others from the Boon groups No worries mate

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

All those exposed roots on this young of a tree really bother me. I would do the repot this year, save all other techniques for autumn or next year. Get that tree lower in the pot. the nebari should be buried, until the tree is near ready for exhibition, or at least 5 or more years along in development.

 

[WesB]

All those exposed roots on this young of a tree really bother me. I would do the repot this year, save all other techniques for autumn or next year. Get that tree lower in the pot. the nebari should be buried, until the tree is near ready for exhibition, or at least 5 or more years along in development.

Aye, it’s 18 years from seed. Just barely old enough to be a man. Some of the roots had been pinned down but nestled loose during shipping. Like I mentioned I already plan to remove a couple. The rest will just be cleaned and repinned if needed during the repot.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Looks young for 18 years, maybe it was misrepresented to you, or the photos simply don't convey the age.

If it is that old, to my eye the "stilt roots" do not look like what I would expect a pine to look like. I would figure how to eliminate stilt roots, either by pruning them off, or by potting deeper as a way to hide those roots. But that is my personal taste. Do what you want. I do feel they detract significantly from the image.

Exposed root styling is much more exaggerated than what you are showing and would generally make a tall literati look completely unstable. The middle ground between exposed roots and classic nebari is often unappealing to both those who like one form or the other form.

 

[WesB]

18, it’s probably around that age. The dark flaky bark runs from base to top and extends across all the older branches. I don’t really have a reason to doubt the age. It was probably 15ish when the nursery got it and repotted it 2.5 years back, he has a few hundred JBP so no reason to doubt the guy.


A few weeks back b4 I decided on which tree for certain Boon said it needs a repot for health and a bark cleaning. So that’s been my plan.. along with the roots. From there I’m trying to follow the RN 2 year lecture for development. A, because it’s laid out well and freely available and B because it’s laid out well and freely available.

That’s all, nothing exciting or conspiracy. Just doin a bonsai.

 

[WesB]

Looks young for 18 years, maybe it was misrepresented to you, or the photos simply don't convey the age.

If it is that old, to my eye the "stilt roots" do not look like what I would expect a pine to look like. I would figure how to eliminate stilt roots, either by pruning them off, or by potting deeper as a way to hide those roots. But that is my personal taste. Do what you want. I do feel they detract significantly from the image.

Exposed root styling is much more exaggerated than what you are showing and would generally make a tall literati look completely unstable. The middle ground between exposed roots and classic nebari is often unappealing to both those who like one form or the other form.

Re-read the OP about roots..