Can this work in place of Turface?

[f1pt4]

OK dang it! Turface... I can get it, but it's 2 1/2 or 5 hours away. I had Akadama mailed in, have loads of sharp grit, but Turface, well, I give up. I did a ton of reading here and other websites, and get conflicting arguments on the use of damn near every option. I looked for oil dry, no luck, but found this. It seems to be pretty much the same as the oil dry. Anybody willing to give a guy some sound guidance? Will this work? Am I over thinking/researching things?.

I was going to get some of this yesterday, but they were sold out (it was $2.00 off this week). This page: http://www.bonsai4me.com/Basics/Basicscatlitter page4.html says it is okay. I haven't been able to find the Napa stuff here in Canada.

I'm using Qualisorb from CdnTire as part of a mix, and I'm quite happy with the results so far. But you NEED to sift and wash it, tons of fine particles.

For the mix I use, Qualisorb or Haydite + Lava + Akadama or Pine Bark or ProMix w/ mycorrhizae, depending on the tree, what I have available. Sometimes I add pumice to the mix, but the only stuff I can find here are the imported bags of the big 1"+ peices and they tend to cost quite a bit.

I havn't used turface, but I'm sure you can sub it for Qualisorb DE or Haydite. And also like with all substrates, sift.

Like other members said, experiment with different mixes and then you'll know what works for you.

I'm new to this sport, but I'm enjoying the learning process. The above mix has been working for me!

 

[PierreR]

I bought a sack of lava rock today, found some at a landscape/garden center in the city. Got black and some red. Also have a sack of Profile on the way.
http://www.brettyoung.ca/images/fil...prod-info/profile-porous-ceramic-brochure.pdf
This is what the university is using in its horticultural department. So with those items, and the qualisorb, I should be in good shape! Thanks for all your help and suggestions.

 

[jackaccyou2]

http://bonsaistudygroup.com/general-discussion/substrate-and-water-retention/msg17832/#msg17832

But that's another discussion board. It's super easy - here's how you do it:

1. You'll need at graduated cylinder or plastic measuring cup. Drill a hole at the very bottom.View attachment 78988
2. Fill the cylinder up with soil. They height is very important - fill it up to the depth of your bonsai pot. If you plan on using a drainage layer, make sure you subtract the height of your drainage layer. from the soil level in the cylinder. Read off the volume of soil in the beaker.
3. Start with a fixed amount of water. Holding your finger over the hole on the bottom, pour in water until the water level just reaches the top of the soil and see how much water you have left. The difference between the water volume you started with and that you finished with is the total porosity of the soil.View attachment 78989
4. Place a second measuring cup beneath the cylinder and remove your finger. Measure the amount of water that drains out. The difference between the volume of water you poured in and the amount that comes out measures the volume of water the soil can hold.
5. The volume of water stuck in the soil divided by the total porosity you measured in step 3 is the saturated pore volume. One minus the saturated pore volume is the air-filled porosity. You want this number to be 20% or so. There's nuance in plant species on what they like - some trees (pines, maples) seem to like it even higher (25-30%). But you want to avoid numbers less than 15%. At 10% conditions are waterlogged and plant growth suffers. Less than 5% they'll start dying.

If you're number is too low, here are some things you can do:

1. Sieve out the fine-grained fraction. The coarser and more uniform the grain size, the higher the AFP. I use 1/4"-3/8" grain size. I'm guessing you'll want something a bit more coarse grained depending on the depth of the pot you plan on using.
2. Use a deeper pot. The deeper the pot the easier it will be to get the right AFP.
3. Use a thinner drainage layer.
4. Use a material with more angular fragments.

You can do the exact same experiment with by measuring weight too - you might be able to make your measurements more accurately if you have a good scale. Just measure do all the same steps, except measure the weight of the soil after each step. You can calculate the volumes using the water density (1g/cc).

Scott

Hi Scott. I was performing this test for 3-6mm pine bark however they are so light that they keep floating. So it seems that I can't pour util water level just reaches the top of the soil. Do you have any suggestions on what to do?

 

[markyscott]

Hi Scott. I was performing this test for 3-6mm pine bark however they are so light that they keep floating. So it seems that I can't pour util water level just reaches the top of the soil. Do you have any suggestions on what to do?

Good question. Pine bark can be hydrophobic when dry. Perhaps let it soak in the beaker overnight before draining the water.

S

 

[jackaccyou2]

Good question. Pine bark can be hydrophobic when dry. Perhaps let it soak in the beaker overnight before draining the water.

S

Just to be clear, do you mean I should pour water up to the original level of the substrate and leave it overnight? Then I release the drainage hole and let it drain?

 

[markyscott]

Just to be clear, do you mean I should pour water up to the original level of the substrate and leave it overnight? Then I release the drainage hole and let it drain?

That’s my thought. If that doesn’t work, perhaps add a surfactant of some kind to see if that works.

 

[The Warm Canuck]

OK dang it! Turface... I can get it, but it's 2 1/2 or 5 hours away. I had Akadama mailed in, have loads of sharp grit, but Turface, well, I give up. I did a ton of reading here and other websites, and get conflicting arguments on the use of damn near every option. I looked for oil dry, no luck, but found this. It seems to be pretty much the same as the oil dry. Anybody willing to give a guy some sound guidance? Will this work? Am I over thinking/researching things?

Took the photos at a dealership.

There's better products available in Canada than Turfis. I used it when starting because I could buy it locally and thought it was a good deal because I'd get a big bag of it cheap but once actually sifting it, I wouldn't actually get much out of it. I personally don't like the shape of the particle, being flat.

I now use a Lava, Pumice, Orchid Bark mix.

Here's lava rock for a 30lbs bag for $30. Yes, you need to do some sifting but you'll get way more bang for your buck than sifting Turfis.

Lavagrip 16kg Anti-Slip Traction Aid | Home Hardware

Get the LAVAGRIP 16kg Anti-Slip Traction Aid at your local Home Hardware store. Buy online and get Free Shipping to any Home location!

www.homehardware.ca

Here's a Canadian supplier of Orchid mix, a bit pricey but no sifting required, the size is perfect:

Orchiata™ bark - precision (extra fine)

3-6mm, our smallest chip size used mainly for young orchids or orchids seedlings (from flask).

ravenvision-orchid-supplies.myshopify.com

Homedepot.ca also now sells Bonsai soils, including Pumice. However, it's way over priced as far as I'm concerned but if you don't want to do the leg work and don't mind spending the money, it's a good go. But you may be able to find Pumice in your local area if you look hard. Your not that far from BC so getting Pumice at a reasonable price, shouldn't be that difficult.

https://www.homedepot.ca/product/the-bonsai-supply-pumice-for-bonsai-succulent-cactus-and-other-container-grown-plants-1-4-particle-size-20qt-bag-/1001726018?rrec=true

 

[Potawatomi13]

Thanks guys. I am not sold on it... I have read every thread back to 2013 about all the different options from kitty litter to Akadama. Some swear by each while others curse it. Seems that everyone has a pet mix, and they are tickeled with the results, while others have had zero or negative results. Akadama, turface, floor dri, kitty litter, all breaking down, turning to mush, causing roots to rot, plugging drain holes... Seriously. I want to use good products, there isnt much of a consensus or agreement on anything. Some say you can grow in crushed glass or marbles...

I know I'm "another new guy", I know these questions get asked and answered on a regular basis, I know how to search, been doing nothing but.. Tried taking notes, but there are too many for and against threads to sway a decision towards what to use. I know there is no perfect mix, I'll mix my own. I just want the mix to contain the best materials I can get my hands on, within a reasonable price.
Please don't infer a negative tone from my post. I hate texting because I think people are getting mad or "pissy" or my posts are read that way.
I am confused and dont want to choose crap materials and harm the trees.

Thanks for your patience, and hopefully your guidance.

Get pumice if available. Will not break down.

 

[penumbra]

Ridiculous price on that Lava Grip on Amazon. 4.5 kg for $125 with shipping.

LavaGrip Traction Aid 4.5kg Jug : Amazon.ca: Health & Personal Care

LavaGrip Traction Aid 4.5kg Jug : Amazon.ca: Health & Personal Care

www.amazon.ca

I get mine from Bonsai Jack.

 

[misfit11]

I get mine from Bonsai Jack.

Same. I had some difficulty sourcing black lava rock, but found Bonsai Jack on Amazon. It's great. Pre-sifted and clean. It's in the ideal size for bonsai and the price is reasonable.

https://www.amazon.com/Bonsai-Jack-Black-Quarts-Dressing/dp/B00GPLSX0C/ref=mp_s_a_1_4?crid=2MRNHPAMQZT7E&keywords=lava+rock+bonsai&qid=1675960023&sprefix=lava+rock+bo%2Caps%2C212&sr=8-4

 

[cishepard]

Your not that far from BC so getting Pumice at a reasonable price, shouldn't be that difficult.

Where do you find pumice at a reasonable price in BC? I used to get it at Buckerfields, but my local store says they can’t order it anymore …

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

There's better products available in Canada than Turfis. I used it when starting because I could buy it locally and thought it was a good deal because I'd get a big bag of it cheap but once actually sifting it, I wouldn't actually get much out of it. I personally don't like the shape of the particle, being flat.

I now use a Lava, Pumice, Orchid Bark mix.

Here's lava rock for a 30lbs bag for $30. Yes, you need to do some sifting but you'll get way more bang for your buck than sifting Turfis.

Lavagrip 16kg Anti-Slip Traction Aid | Home Hardware

Get the LAVAGRIP 16kg Anti-Slip Traction Aid at your local Home Hardware store. Buy online and get Free Shipping to any Home location!

www.homehardware.ca

View attachment 471847

Here's a Canadian supplier of Orchid mix, a bit pricey but no sifting required, the size is perfect:

Orchiata™ bark - precision (extra fine)

3-6mm, our smallest chip size used mainly for young orchids or orchids seedlings (from flask).

ravenvision-orchid-supplies.myshopify.com

View attachment 471848

Homedepot.ca also now sells Bonsai soils, including Pumice. However, it's way over priced as far as I'm concerned but if you don't want to do the leg work and don't mind spending the money, it's a good go. But you may be able to find Pumice in your local area if you look hard. Your not that far from BC so getting Pumice at a reasonable price, shouldn't be that difficult.

https://www.homedepot.ca/product/the-bonsai-supply-pumice-for-bonsai-succulent-cactus-and-other-container-grown-plants-1-4-particle-size-20qt-bag-/1001726018?rrec=true

That brand of bark for orchids is the best for orchids if you happen to grow orchids and great for bonsai too.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Earlier in this thread there was a 2013 question about the difference between pumice and perlite. Interestingly enough, chemically there is very little or no difference. They are both on the "spectrum" of igneous products of volcanoes. Actually if you enjoy the ridiculous hype about super volcanoes, one of the bigger quarries in USA where both perlite and pumice are mined is in New Mexico and is one of the deposits from Holocene eruption of the El Valle super volcano about 60 miles outside of Taos NM. Perlite is chemically similar to pumice but significantly more air voids. Not enough quarries produce natural perlite, so it is also manufactured, glass slag, either from glass works for from steel works can be foamed up with air while molten then quenched to make perlite.

But yes, if you are ever in New Mexico. and notice a few quarries near Taos, they are mining volcanic products from left over from El Valle and the other dozen or so volcanos scattered around NM. If you get a change to visit the EL Valle caldera, it is beautiful, or it was before they started filming TV shows in there. Its at about 9000 feet elevation, when I was there there was no electricity and no people living in the caldera. The night sky was incredible, because the caldera rim blocked out light from the few ranches and towns in the distance. The noise the elk herds make at night are really something.

 

[The Warm Canuck]

Where do you find pumice at a reasonable price in BC? I used to get it at Buckerfields, but my local store says they can’t order it anymore …

I don't know about on the island. Most of the pumice and lava rock comes from the mainlands mountains, as far as I know. That's why it's harder and more expensive for us to get here in the east.

 

[Crunchnugget]

There's better products available in Canada than Turfis. I used it when starting because I could buy it locally and thought it was a good deal because I'd get a big bag of it cheap but once actually sifting it, I wouldn't actually get much out of it. I personally don't like the shape of the particle, being flat.

I now use a Lava, Pumice, Orchid Bark mix.

Here's lava rock for a 30lbs bag for $30. Yes, you need to do some sifting but you'll get way more bang for your buck than sifting Turfis.

Lavagrip 16kg Anti-Slip Traction Aid | Home Hardware

Get the LAVAGRIP 16kg Anti-Slip Traction Aid at your local Home Hardware store. Buy online and get Free Shipping to any Home location!

www.homehardware.ca

View attachment 471847

Here's a Canadian supplier of Orchid mix, a bit pricey but no sifting required, the size is perfect:

Orchiata™ bark - precision (extra fine)

3-6mm, our smallest chip size used mainly for young orchids or orchids seedlings (from flask).

ravenvision-orchid-supplies.myshopify.com

View attachment 471848

Homedepot.ca also now sells Bonsai soils, including Pumice. However, it's way over priced as far as I'm concerned but if you don't want to do the leg work and don't mind spending the money, it's a good go. But you may be able to find Pumice in your local area if you look hard. Your not that far from BC so getting Pumice at a reasonable price, shouldn't be that difficult.

https://www.homedepot.ca/product/the-bonsai-supply-pumice-for-bonsai-succulent-cactus-and-other-container-grown-plants-1-4-particle-size-20qt-bag-/1001726018?rrec=true

I was considering using Lava Grip. What sort of particle sizes are you seeing after sifting Canuck?

 

[pandacular]

Where do you find pumice at a reasonable price in BC? I used to get it at Buckerfields, but my local store says they can’t order it anymore …

Wholesale landscape supply or trucking stores near me tend to have it; you can bring a bucket and dig yourself. Down here, I can get a cubic yard for about $80 USD.