Chamaecyparis “Golden Mop” #1: Progression Series

[Vinnie Charity]

Trees aren't like humans. You can't make them fatter by feeding them more. You can only make them stunted and discolored by feeding them too little. I doubt there is a plant that can make use of a fertilizer that's 58% phosphorus. The rest will just go to waste.

The reason for the high phosphorus fertilizer is to try to get the tree to focus on bud production (back-budding), not extending growth even further from the trunk.

It’s a crap shoot, but this tree will be even better with more branching closer to the trunk. It looks significantly better than it did with all of the excess, long, leggy branches before the major pruning in February, so I’m hoping the high P fertilizer will help increase the very low probability that this tree will back-bud…

 

[Gabler]

The reason for the high phosphorus fertilizer is to try to get the tree to focus on bud production (back-budding), not extending growth even further from the trunk.

It’s a crap shoot, but this tree will be even better with more branching closer to the trunk. It looks significantly better than it did with all of the excess, long, leggy branches before the major pruning in February, so I’m hoping the high P fertilizer will help increase the very low probability that this tree will back-bud…

Both based on what I've read and based on my personal experience, fertilizers cannot encourage a tree to exhibit any particular growth habit. A tree will not back bud merely because you're giving it more food than it needs to do so. The way to encourage back-budding is to get the tree growing as vigorously as possible, so it activates as many buds as possible.

I would give the tree a balanced fertilizer with lots of nitrogen and a smaller amount of phosphorus and potassium, and ensure the tree gets as much light as possible to the inner branching without compromising strong growth.

I work with deciduous species, mostly, so I'm not familiar with the best techniques for promoting back-budding in trees like this. Hopefully, someone else will chime in with more guidance.

 

[Vinnie Charity]

Agree with this point. I think this tree should photograph just fine. Get further away from the tree and zoom in.

Got down on bended knee to take these pictures…

On its pedestal…


With a white background…


Thanks for the photo advice, I’ll be using this advice going forward…

 

[Vinnie Charity]

Both based on what I've read and based on my personal experience, fertilizers cannot encourage a tree to exhibit any particular growth habit. A tree will not back bud merely because you're giving it more food than it needs to do so. The way to encourage back-budding is to get the tree growing as vigorously as possible, so it activates as many buds as possible.

I would give the tree a balanced fertilizer with lots of nitrogen and a smaller amount of phosphorus and potassium, and ensure the tree gets as much light as possible to the inner branching without compromising strong growth.

I work with deciduous species, mostly, so I'm not familiar with the best techniques for promoting back-budding in trees like this. Hopefully, someone else will chime in with more guidance.

My understanding is that NPK works as follows…

N - Nitrogen = For growing foliage and shoots

P - Phosphorus = For growing roots and encouraging bud formation (ie. flower fertilizer)

K - Potassium = Overall tree health

 

[pandacular]

In this particular case, you may want to read about Liebig's Law of the Minimum, which essentially states that excess of one nutrient is irrelevant if there is a deficiency of another.

 

[Gabler]

My understanding is that NPK works as follows…

N - Nitrogen = For growing foliage and shoots

P - Phosphorus = For growing roots and encouraging bud formation (ie. flower fertilizer)

K - Potassium = Overall tree health

Necessary but not sufficient. That is to say, nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium are necessary for their various respective roles in tree heath, but not sufficient to prompt any particular behavior in the tree.

Think of it like your car's gas tank. If you have no gas, you're not going to get very far. If you have gas, you don't automatically drive as far as you can. You drive as far as you need to.

 

[Vinnie Charity]

The video, though short, is too big to upload. I’ll take the tree into the shop, put it on the turntable, and take a shorter video…

 

[Vinnie Charity]

Both based on what I've read and based on my personal experience, fertilizers cannot encourage a tree to exhibit any particular growth habit. A tree will not back bud merely because you're giving it more food than it needs to do so. The way to encourage back-budding is to get the tree growing as vigorously as possible, so it activates as many buds as possible.

I would give the tree a balanced fertilizer with lots of nitrogen and a smaller amount of phosphorus and potassium, and ensure the tree gets as much light as possible to the inner branching without compromising strong growth.

I work with deciduous species, mostly, so I'm not familiar with the best techniques for promoting back-budding in trees like this. Hopefully, someone else will chime in with more guidance.

This tree is growing EXTREMELY vigorously, but it is only growing by extending the existing foliage. Most of the back budding that has occurred, has occurred near those extending tips, and the crotches, of course. I’ve pinched this tree 3 times this year already and it is still pushing new growth. Part of that is the high N fertilizer I’ve been feeding it, because I ran out of high P fertilizer, hence the 3 fertilizer baskets.

I know that these types of trees do not back bud very well, but I’m not going to let that stop me from trying.

One of the reasons I started this tread was to help educate others that are interested in growing Chamaecyparis, so they are able to see exactly how these trees respond to various bonsai techniques…

 

[Vinnie Charity]

Necessary but not sufficient. That is to say, nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium are necessary for their various respective roles in tree heath, but not sufficient to prompt any particular behavior in the tree.

Think of it like your car's gas tank. If you have no gas, you're not going to get very far. If you have gas, you don't automatically drive as far as you can. You drive as far as you need to.

I like the gasoline analogy, and like fertilizer, there are different types of gasoline that allow engines to do different things. Higher octane fuels allow more compression and ignition timing, which make more power, but get worse gas mileage.

Lower octane fuels allow for better gas mileage, at the expense of power.

Putting high octane fuel in a normal engine is a waste, just like using high N fertilizer on a tree in refinement is a waste. Balanced fertilizer would be good, but higher phosphorus will help to maintain the tree, which is my ultimate goal.

 

[Gabler]

I like the gasoline analogy, and like fertilizer, there are different types of gasoline that allow engines to do different things. Higher octane fuels allow more compression and ignition timing, which make more power, but get worse gas mileage.

Lower octane fuels allow for better gas mileage, at the expense of power.

Putting high octane fuel in a normal engine is a waste, just like using high N fertilizer on a tree in refinement is a waste. Balanced fertilizer would be good, but higher phosphorus will help to maintain the tree, which is my ultimate goal.

Um. That's not how that works. I don't recommend you extend the metaphor further than to illustrate the difference between necessary and sufficient. What I mean to say is that your tree cannot possibly use that much phosphorus. As @pandacular explained, look into the law of the minimum.

This tree is growing EXTREMELY vigorously, but it is only growing by extending the existing foliage. Most of the back budding that has occurred, has occurred near those extending tips, and the crotches, of course. I’ve pinched this tree 3 times this year already and it is still pushing new growth. Part of that is the high N fertilizer I’ve been feeding it, because I ran out of high P fertilizer, hence the 3 fertilizer baskets.

I know that these types of trees do not back bud very well, but I’m not going to let that stop me from trying.

One of the reasons I started this tread was to help educate others that are interested in growing Chamaecyparis, so they are able to see exactly how these trees respond to various bonsai techniques…

If you're getting back-budding at the crotches, that's great. Cut back to the crotches and re-build your branches with denser foliage.

 

[Vinnie Charity]

Um. That's not how that works. I don't recommend you extend the metaphor further than to illustrate the difference between necessary and sufficient. What I mean to say is that your tree cannot possibly use that much phosphorus. As @pandacular explained, look into the law of the minimum.




If you're getting back-budding at the crotches, that's great. Cut back to the crotches and re-build your branches with denser foliage.

The law of minimums makes sense, and would perfectly fit this example if the fertilizer was, say 0-58-9.

Many people use 0-10-10 fertilizer for preparing trees for dormancy, so the tree won’t push on the random warm day. The lack of nitrogen won’t stop the tree from growing more roots.

On my other refined trees, using higher amounts of phosphorus still makes the tree push, just not as strongly and dormant buds pop out all over the trunk. I know that won’t happen as well with this tree, but I’m still trying to get a least some back-budding on the old wood

I’m only trying this super high P fertilizer out, and if it doesn’t work, I’ve lost only a small amount of money. If it does work, this good tree will eventually be a great tree…

 

[Vinnie Charity]

If you're getting back-budding at the crotches, that's great. Cut back to the crotches and re-build your branches with denser foliage.

The issue is that the branches are all very long and leggy, so they have been compacted to bring the foliage closer to the trunk.

All of the crotches are in the foliage mass and not further back on the branches where they would be most useful.

Once/if I see back-budding that is more useful, I will cut back to it once it’s strong enough so that I can start rebuilding the branch structure that I lost when I was unable to work on the tree for nearly 3 years…

 

[Japonicus]

The issue is that the branches are all very long and leggy, so they have been compacted to bring the foliage closer to the trunk.

All of the crotches are in the foliage mass and not further back on the branches where they would be most useful.

Once/if I see back-budding that is more useful, I will cut back to it once it’s strong enough so that I can start rebuilding the branch structure that I lost when I was unable to work on the tree for nearly 3 years…

I love the trunk on this tree Vinnie. The cinnamon coloured flaky bark look great.
Just keep moss off the bark. Very hard to clean it off without stripping the flaky bark.

Waiting for the back budding to be strong enough...
I don't think this is going to work due to the lack of back budding issue with these trees.

What is most likely to work, now that you've been intimately wiring it, and more familiar with it
is to find growth to cut back to and build from there. I would find the one branch that has
the least viable foliage that can be cut back to, and mark it with something you can see
in your pictures. Then I would find a happy medium I could cut the silhouette back to
keeping that one branch in mind as being a restarting point.
Keep foliage exposed through thinning and light pruning.

EXTREMELY vigorously, but it is only growing by extending the existing foliage.

This
You've pinched it 3x this yr. What if all that new growth had been pushing from a tighter silhouette?
Then IF it back buds any at all, as random as it would be, it would be that much further back.
I would let it rest till next Summer for now.

Most of the back budding that has occurred, has occurred near those extending tips,

Same issue with white pine. If the above thought can't work for you, I would start
practicing grafting these.

 

[Vinnie Charity]

I love the trunk on this tree Vinnie. The cinnamon coloured flaky bark look great.
Just keep moss off the bark. Very hard to clean it off without stripping the flaky bark.

Waiting for the back budding to be strong enough...
I don't think this is going to work due to the lack of back budding issue with these trees.

What is most likely to work, now that you've been intimately wiring it, and more familiar with it
is to find growth to cut back to and build from there. I would find the one branch that has
the least viable foliage that can be cut back to, and mark it with something you can see
in your pictures. Then I would find a happy medium I could cut the silhouette back to
keeping that one branch in mind as being a restarting point.
Keep foliage exposed through thinning and light pruning.


This
You've pinched it 3x this yr. What if all that new growth had been pushing from a tighter silhouette?
Then IF it back buds any at all, as random as it would be, it would be that much further back.
I would let it rest till next Summer for now.


Same issue with white pine. If the above thought can't work for you, I would start
practicing grafting these.

The flaky bark on this tree is one of my favorite features.

As for back-budding, I’m not too hopeful it will back-bud either, and I’ve cut off all of the longest branches, keeping the branches you see now. I’ve been pinching the tree because it is SUPER vigorous and hoping it would trigger some back-buds, which it has, though it is not on any of the older wood, which is to be expected.

I have also considered grafting this tree, but it’s not something I’ve ever done (other than thread grafting) and I don’t want to risk weakening any of the branches, as I will be unable to regrow them. I will consider it further as the tree continues to elongate, because it will be the only option at that point…

 

[Japonicus]

Are most of these cuts not doable?
Circled, there looks to be an interior fork, but can't really tell.
That foliage needs light to keep growing, so your wiring and attention is helpful.
If there is foliage there and if you could shorten the branch any and keep apical
growth pinched back, it would stand a chance as a new branch. I know, and I feel your pain...
that's just one. I would love to have some training on grafting.
Love the back story on this one. Wish it had been kept up for ya before you got it.
I've got a Lynns Golden that has been let go too long.

 

[Gabler]

Many people use 0-10-10 fertilizer for preparing trees for dormancy, so the tree won’t push on the random warm day. The lack of nitrogen won’t stop the tree from growing more roots.

That's a myth. 0-10-10 fertilizer just deprives the tree of the most important soil nutrient to prepare for spring growth the following year. I use high-nitrogen fertilizer year-round. It doesn't cause trees to push growth out of season. That's not how fertilizer works. They're already programmed to go dormant then. Adding fertilizer doesn't change what the tree is programmed to do.

 

[Vinnie Charity]

That's a myth. 0-10-10 fertilizer just deprives the tree of the most important soil nutrient to prepare for spring growth the following year. I use high-nitrogen fertilizer year-round. It doesn't cause trees to push growth out of season. That's not how fertilizer works. They're already programmed to go dormant then. Adding fertilizer doesn't change what the tree is programmed to do.

I don’t use that kind of fertilizer either, I just use the same fertilizer and stop fertilizing after September to prepare the trees for dormancy.

Do you use high nitrogen fertilizer on your refined trees as well? High nitrogen always makes my refined trees grow too much out of shape…

 

[Vinnie Charity]

View attachment 505974
Are most of these cuts not doable?
Circled, there looks to be an interior fork, but can't really tell.
That foliage needs light to keep growing, so your wiring and attention is helpful.
If there is foliage there and if you could shorten the branch any and keep apical
growth pinched back, it would stand a chance as a new branch. I know, and I feel your pain...
that's just one. I would love to have some training on grafting.
Love the back story on this one. Wish it had been kept up for ya before you got it.
I've got a Lynns Golden that has been let go too long.

If you look at the left of the tree, there is one branch, framed by the rectangle on the garage door that has never been wired. I’m thinking about removing it and bringing the branch above it down into its place.


The inside of the tree actually gets sufficient light, despite all of the foliage on the tree, as the initial wiring was done to open the tree up. I won’t be doing anymore pruning until next spring, roughly 6-8 weeks after it starts to push.

At that point, I will decide on further branch removal, which I will share with everyone here of course…

 

[Japonicus]

Thanks for the photo advice, I’ll be using this advice going forward…

Here's another tip on taking isolated photos of trees for situations like my avatar.
At night, this JWP is on my railing with the grass as the background.
The flash only illuminates what is close. White is more helpful in your situation here.
Try it with this tree though. I think you'll like it. Might take a couple trials to get the right distance.

 

[Vinnie Charity]

Here's another tip on taking isolated photos of trees for situations like my avatar.
At night, this JWP is on my railing with the grass as the background.
The flash only illuminates what is close. White is more helpful in your situation here.
Try it with this tree though. I think you'll like it. Might take a couple trials to get the right distance.

I’m willing to try anything that works. I’ve tried with the flash, but it doesn’t work that well because of all of the trees behind it.

Of course, I’ll share my findings with the group…