Choosing training pot size for my picea abies

[Ugo]

Hi everyone!

Question today about training pot size and roots reduction on picea abies.

I got this tree last year and didnt do much work as the tree was not in good health.
During summer it have gain much more foliage then it has with alot of back buds.

I dont have any "good" reason to repot as the substrate still have good percolation but the actual pot is broken.
Im planning a repot next spring, the tree was vigourous last year and I think this tree would benefits from a couple years in a training pot.

My ultimate goal is to plant it on a rock.



Unfortunately, I found that pictures dont give this tree justice as one cannot appreaciate the foliage on the sides and back.
I must admit Its not the nicest spruce Ive seen but for the simple reason it has survived I want to keep working on it.

The actual pot measure 11in and is 5in deep.
The size of the tree is the following:
Height 19in
Base 4.5in
Bottom branches spam 24in

I would like to get the trunk bigger, while trying to control the size of 2 branches on top.

How can I select a proper training pot size while keeping in mind that roots reduction can be a hazardous on spruce tree?
Im affraid of going too big which can lead to issues and if not Im wondering how many years or repots it could take to reduce the root ball to fit into a proper size pot.

Mika pots are easily available and I think for the price it would be the best solution for me.
A place near me offer mika pots of size up to:
Internal dimensions : 18in X 12.5in X 3.5in

What would be your advise on training pot size?

Thanks
Ugo

 

[Potawatomi13]

Why not build box.

 

[Ugo]

Why not build box.

Hi!

Yes, its possible to build a box in fact the container doesnt really matter except Mica pots would look better.
But Im more looking at a rule of thumbs for choosing the right training pot size!

 

[Colorado]

I would focus on working the roots into a much more shallow container.

 

[sorce]

for the simple reason it has survived I want to keep working on it

I agree with this....and nothing else, because I value your time.

You MUST sacrifice

look better

Or you are wasting your time.

This.

pictures dont give this tree justice

Is more your personal feeling of staleness due to it being a picture. Even the worst picture of a great tree is justice enough to convey it is a good tree.

The problem with increasing trunk size is that the proportions of branches will get worse.
The only way to cure this with this length of trunk is to restart all the branches.
Or chop it to the first branch. (Better IMO.)

Pot or box size should be a moot point.
What size basket/air root pruning device is a more appropriate question.

It is simply foolish to use anything else, as all your best roots will eventually grow around the outside. Meaning you will have to cut it back repeatedly for no reason over many seasons. Which I argue not only reduces vigour more than a basket, but also adds life ending risk each time.

Better to make and contain excellent feeder roots within the future finished pot size from the beginning.

Sorce

 

[luvinthemountains]

Better to make and contain excellent feeder roots within the future finished pot size from the beginning.

So are you suggesting then that @Ugo should work this spruce into a colander/basket about the same width and slightly shallower than the current pot? Why not do that and partially submerge the colander in a much (but not too much) larger box/pot to let the roots escape and boost growth? I have not done that myself, but I plan to do some experimenting to see if the method might produce good results developing trunks.

 

[sorce]

So are you suggesting then that @Ugo should work this spruce into a colander/basket about the same width and slightly shallower than the current pot? Why not do that and partially submerge the colander in a much (but not too much) larger box/pot to let the roots escape and boost growth? I have not done that myself, but I plan to do some experimenting to see if the method might produce good results developing trunks.

I think just setting them on the ground to allow bottom roots to easily escape is the rightest move.
Since you get both ground growth with roots directly below the trunk that won't oversize the surface roots while containing good future smallpottable roots.

This is why I despise the "cut off downward growing roots" syndrome. Spouted by folks who also know to not pot to early. This is of course just an innocent convolution of methods without a solid seperation of the difference between growing things out and finely developing them. The important prior step for me is keeping them on purpose for the above benefits.

I guess what I have been trying to teach, is it is completely possible to both grow things out and finish develope them at the same time.

It just takes a new method, it's hard for folks to grasp that anything new can work in such an "old hobby". Even when we see things new emerge all the time.

This has been and will be what I consider the most appropriate method of growing prebonsai, especially ones that do not take well to rootwork. Though I believe there are benefits and no downfall for any material.

The illustration. I think I'll call it Dragon Training.
Keeping the wings as surface roots baskets above ground, removing the red, and cutting off the yellow tail upon smallpotting.


Sacrifice roots. Smart..... sacrifice roots.

Since the biggest pitfall of ground growing is roots that quickly become out of proportion to the trunk.

Sorce

 

[luvinthemountains]

I think I'll call it Dragon Training.

I see what you did there.

Given the old adage that it takes three years in the ground for a tree to start really growing, I wonder what people's experience has been with the relative advantages of regularly cutting off escape roots vs. letting them go for multiple years (and potentially breaking the vessel).

 

[sorce]

regularly cutting off escape roots vs. letting them go for multiple years (and potentially breaking the vessel).

Surface root escapees or bottom escapees?

I don't like the risk of side escapees as pertains to design.

I think baskets should be sacrificial enough to not worry about breaking them. Or better, not even using bottoms, just using a Radialdisk™ under the surface roots, with basket material around the top surface roots like they "fence" ground layers.

Sorce

 

[Japonicus]

My ultimate goal is to plant it on a rock.

I sure hope when folks reply here, that this is taken into consideration.

@Ugo when you wire opposing branches with a piece of wire (left and right across from each other)
or branches on the same plane, they are not anchored and acts as a teeter totter.
I acknowledge your efforts to use one piece of wire for 2 branches, but it did not work out.

Bonsai Wiring Essentials

Uncover professional secrets to wiring better, faster and more accurately in this FREE mini-class, and develop beautiful bonsai trees!

www.craftsy.com

You will have to create an account and + this free tutorial to cart, but it is free.

From what I understand about planting ROR which is not much, it is not done in a shallow container 1st.
If that is your ultimate goal, then research here and the web, on how to get from here to there.

If this were mine, I would either use the 1st 2 branches and nothing else, or...
I would remove the 1st 2 branches on both sides (4) and wire the remaining branches down in a 45-60º
downward angle given the taperless straight trunk much like Vance Hanna's avatar below



Then a shari.

 

[swatchpost]

I think just setting them on the ground to allow bottom roots to easily escape is the rightest move.
Since you get both ground growth with roots directly below the trunk that won't oversize the surface roots while containing good future smallpottable roots.

This is why I despise the "cut off downward growing roots" syndrome. Spouted by folks who also know to not pot to early. This is of course just an innocent convolution of methods without a solid seperation of the difference between growing things out and finely developing them. The important prior step for me is keeping them on purpose for the above benefits.

I guess what I have been trying to teach, is it is completely possible to both grow things out and finish develope them at the same time.

It just takes a new method, it's hard for folks to grasp that anything new can work in such an "old hobby". Even when we see things new emerge all the time.

This has been and will be what I consider the most appropriate method of growing prebonsai, especially ones that do not take well to rootwork. Though I believe there are benefits and no downfall for any material.

The illustration. I think I'll call it Dragon Training.
Keeping the wings as surface roots baskets above ground, removing the red, and cutting off the yellow tail upon smallpotting.
View attachment 414644

Sacrifice roots. Smart..... sacrifice roots.

Since the biggest pitfall of ground growing is roots that quickly become out of proportion to the trunk.

Sorce

I recognize that tree!

 

[Ugo]

Hi!

Wow thanks alot for your time guys.

@Japonicus
Theses videos really point out my mistakes, thanks for sharing!
Im now ashamed of showing you guys this previous wiring work.... but I guess that's the way I will get better.
There is one point I would like to precise about planting the tree on a rock.. I think I should have say ¨inside¨ a rock.
I think this tree would look good in a natural ¨pot¨, in this case a rock with rough edges all around but with a bowl carved in the middle... ( I know this would be a major project if it even happen!)

@sorce once again thank you for sharing your experience and knowledge!
Im not sure I worth it yet but I can tell you even if I cant enjoy having a bonsai club near me this forum and members here really accelerate my progression and understanding of this great hobby.
I know that I repeat myself quite often but I really want to thank everyone that take their time to read my posts and share their opinions, my posts are sometimes not easy to read as English is my second language but I can feel people here and even the professionals really have a passion for sharing their love for bonsai to beginners like me while forgetting the language barrier.
Just so you know Im kind a crazy when it comes to knowledge, I take a lot of notes so I can tell you all the information you take time to explain is not lost!

Sorce just to make sure I understand your lesson there.
Are you saying that one could craft a colander/basket the shape and size of the future final pot and place it either in ground or in a bigger pot?
The way I understand it the colander would have mesh on the outside diameter, a solid ring underside and a hole in the middle to let the bottom roots grow while setting the surface roots horizontally?

Or

The colander have a solid outside diameter, a mesh screen underside and a hole in the middle?

My only concern is that I probably wont be able to put the tree directly on ground, that's why Im asking if putting the colander/basket inside a bigger pot could do it?
I understand the bottom roots will still be restricted by the bottom of the bigger pot.
If Im able to find a good spot on the ground for this tree, would it be a good idea to put the basket/colander on top of a 5 to 6 inches fine mulch pile for example, so the tree could be ¨easily¨ removed from its location?
My issue is winter storage... As I store my tree in a insulated cold shelter that is at the other end of my propriety the tree will have to be moved after 6-7 months after being putted on the ground and go in the shelter.
Or maybe I could build a small shelter ¨around¨ the tree for winter season.... I already hear my wife complaining!

On a side note, I decided to draw the tree in different forms as I want to have a clear idea of the future design.
Please understand that Im far from being a good drawing artist but I found it help me alot to put it in image. I think I even manage to create a reverse taper while drawing...
For now I worked on design to keep the lower left branch, even if this branch is located inside a curve.

Here what I came up with









Well thanks again for this good discussion and I hope to thank you in a couple years, with proofs of my progression.
Ugo

 

[sorce]

progression

I don't think you have to make that extreme cut decision anytime soon, but I do like that direction a bit more, it feels like it makes more sense.

With the roots as they are, it is quite difficult to successfully change the planting angle to use any low branches as a new trunk extension, so this idea makes good use of what is.

Perhaps allowing a new trunk extension to emerge from one or both of the remaining branches, in a form like this...https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/black-spruce-competing-leader-theme.19927/page-6#post-668889
Could work as well.

I reckon throwing it in a large box would work just as well.
Half buried.
So long as the surface roots are getting airpruned, you really only need to keep the bottom ones isolated for easy future removal.

The Radialdisk ™ can be fashioned as so..

Radialayer™ a season saver.

Nutters, You may have noticed I almost always jump to recommending airlayers. I don't think I will ever lose my fascination with the process. In attempts to perfect it, I have worked out some tweaks so it is time to share my method. I don't understand haphazardly throwing long...

www.bonsainut.com

The most important part of the Radialdisk ™ is to provide a guide under which you can run a saw without the need to look at what you're cutting.
When I was growing these in the ground, I bought a wire saw to complete the cut.

wire saw - Google Search

I wouldn't know your English is second language!
I love your thirst for knowledge!

Sorce

 

[Ugo]

I don't think you have to make that extreme cut decision anytime soon, but I do like that direction a bit more, it feels like it makes more sense.

With the roots as they are, it is quite difficult to successfully change the planting angle to use any low branches as a new trunk extension, so this idea makes good use of what is.

Perhaps allowing a new trunk extension to emerge from one or both of the remaining branches, in a form like this...https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/black-spruce-competing-leader-theme.19927/page-6#post-668889
Could work as well.

I reckon throwing it in a large box would work just as well.
Half buried.
So long as the surface roots are getting airpruned, you really only need to keep the bottom ones isolated for easy future removal.

The Radialdisk ™ can be fashioned as so..

Radialayer™ a season saver.

Nutters, You may have noticed I almost always jump to recommending airlayers. I don't think I will ever lose my fascination with the process. In attempts to perfect it, I have worked out some tweaks so it is time to share my method. I don't understand haphazardly throwing long...

www.bonsainut.com

The most important part of the Radialdisk ™ is to provide a guide under which you can run a saw without the need to look at what you're cutting.
When I was growing these in the ground, I bought a wire saw to complete the cut.

wire saw - Google Search

I wouldn't know your English is second language!
I love your thirst for knowledge!

Sorce

Hi!

Sure I will wait the time it takes to get the trunk bigger while keeping the actual foliar mass.
What's interresting is I will be able to use one or two "sacrificial" branches to improve my wiring skill and see how I can improve the ramification with prunning.
I might even try to air layer one just to experience this process.

I also thought about different planting angles for the tree...but as you said with the actual root mass its one of the things I prefer work around instead of changing it.

Your idea of using a branch as a future trunk extension is interresting, I will keep it in mind.
There seems to be quite a few of options for this tree using this angle as the actual front but I have alot of time in front of me so during this time I will work on different drawings using your suggestion.
For now a Shari on a good section on the trunk ,similar to my previous drawing is what I see for this tree but as Im learning more everyday it could change!
I Can't believe that I tough at first that trees only had 1-2 possible design options....

For the training pot I think I get the idea, out of the box for sure but clever idea I must admit thanks you for this.
If you dont mind I would like to ask you a question watering / protection of the soil.
Please correct me if Im wrong but after repotting using your technique the surface roots will have access to more oxygen and will have to support "higher" temperature.
This tree is placed full sun, from morning to late afternoon in my backyard and I have quite a few long days at work.
Should I protect the pot with a sun screen or install an automatic watering system to help keep the balance between water and oxygen during hot days of summer?
I dont water trees on a schedule, only when they needs it but Im under the impression a full sunny day could be a long one for this little guy!

On a side note, I made some research on Radialdisk ™ thinking it was something I could by from store... you got me on that one

Thanks again for your good words
Ugo

 

[sorce]

balance between water and oxygen

I think people like to get overscientific about this topic just to seem smart.

I have observed the debunking of a lot of it's BS myself.

Like the fact that small DE sub 1mm tends to grow healthier trees than large DE, above 2mm.

Some folks still believe they use airborn oxygen when it is actually oxygen dissolved in the water that matters. I argue airborn oxygen has a greater tendency to drykill roots than tight soil has the ability to waterrot roots.

I believe the only downfall to "overwatering" is aesthetic as it pertains to rotting low bark, and encouraging excess moss which damages bark aesthetics with it crawling up trunks

If there is a truth behind any horticultural overwatering, I believe it merely slows growth, which is easier to control, which is a benefit IMO.

I took "be more patient" to heart at the beginning of this, as is taught we should. So I feel like though many people say be patient, they still do a bunch of shit that proves their impatience.

I always thought I was "overwatering", quoted because I didn't really believe in it at the time.
Then when I setup this watering system and began watering even more, it was enough for me to completely KNOW "overwatering" is BS.

What A Terrible Extended Retreat.

Water For Real. Resorce I went away for a week recently. For the first time in a long time, had a great vacation. Didn't worry about my trees cuz I tucked them all under this... Cheaper versions of these products...plastic not brass blah..under about $80 w/ batteries. Set for 25 minutes at...

www.bonsainut.com

More water equals more root growth equals more health almost Period.
"Almost" because it can be argued that the conditions inside those baskets was poor, which is why the roots grew outside of them.
But....if the conditions inside the pot were that bad, the roots would rot in the pot and never make it out, so that's BS too.

One other thing I note with a large check mark, is a conversation I had with Walter's Student Jennifer Price in regards to spruce watering.
Came from a realization with...I believe it was the Potter Horst "Hienz57sauce", how spruce do not like to dry out on the surface, and they are much healthier if kept more constantly wet on the top.

Walter and his entire camp are ones who are paying attention. He also displays an inability to become stagnant, always learning and never afraid to change a method in realization that something he was doing may have been previously wrong, or, not best to be more appropriate. It is this humbleness, and...an understanding that blindly following tradition can leave one less than most efficient, that keeps me going back to Walter for the Best information possible.

Vance Wood also displays this level of humbleness and need to achieve excellence.

I haven't found this level of character elsewhere.

Don't know where that tangent came from but there it is.
It's probably because you are proving to seek similar information, and are of the same character.

Probably because most of this day I've spent talking pots with potters who also tend to display this character more than others. Something bout the process. The cycle.

So....if you find a need to shade a pot, which you probably won't, I think white cloth over the surface is best.

But watering at the height of the sun, seems the most beneficial with the least effort.

Lol Radialdisk ™ at the store!

If it ain't free or near free in my world, it's of the sin of greed and vanity!

Having a conversation about trees with friends is so much more meaningful than owning a great tree!

Meaning warms the heart, a tree without edible pieces will always be useless!

Proper Art provides beauty, which the world needs more of!

Good Bless!

Sorce

 

[Ugo]

Hi Sorce,

Balance of water and oxygen...
As a beginner, I am trying to learn with the most accessible methods for me which include watching tutorial on Youtube and other platforms.
Im sure you already know Ryan Neil, there is a couple videos where he mentions "balance of water and oxygen" when talking about soil and repoting.
My reflex of thinking about water and oxygen balance comes from there.
It would be a lie from me if I say that I know what it really means..
The proof being your statement in your previous post:
"Some folks still believe they use airborn oxygen when it is actually oxygen dissolved in the water that matters. I argue airborn oxygen has a greater tendency to drykill roots than tight soil has the ability to waterrot roots."

I was in that boat for sure.
Thinking about it now makes me realize that it makes alot of sense but it brings a lot of new questions... hope you don't mind.

Please correct me if Im wrong but If the roots of a tree were relying mostly on airborn oxygen, a tree planted in ground wouldn't be a happy tree.
With a tree in a pot, let say a tree taken from ground to a bonsai pot with choosen substrate particles size and drainage holes, what is the impact of the airborne oxygen on the roots?

Does the roots can use a part of the present higher % of airborne oxygen or no?
Or Is the present airborne oxygen in the substrate, that we allow via particle size and drainage holes is mostly there to prevent roots rot?

The link you've sent in your last post made me think about my ficus.
It seems that I did this experiment and benefit from it without knowing....
the tree is in a growing tent, with a humidifier.
The humidifier is external, so the "fog" pass through a plastic pipe that goes from the outside to inside the tent.
The system runs to keep 70% humidity all the time so there is some water droplets that accumulate here and there in the piping.
I decided to allow the water to drain directly in the tree pot while adding a plastic plate under the pot to catch the draining water and since then the roots are coming from everywhere outside the pot!
Its nothing compared to the situation in your post (1hrs of constant watering) but I can now see a similarity.

So I think I will simply add water each morning I know that I wont be able to come home before full sun or do the move and invest in an automatic system.
Before going to work I always check the soil moisture.. that why I was saying I only water the trees when needed..
When I come back home in the afternoon I have what I can call a "ritual"!
Watering my few trees manually is a big part of my end of the day schedule especially during summer and I really enjoy that process!
But seeing an automatic system can bring more advantages than just backing-up while you are away for a couples days is very interresting.

Thanks again for all the informations
Ugo

 

[Ugo]

I don't think you have to make that extreme cut decision anytime soon, but I do like that direction a bit more, it feels like it makes more sense.

With the roots as they are, it is quite difficult to successfully change the planting angle to use any low branches as a new trunk extension, so this idea makes good use of what is.

Perhaps allowing a new trunk extension to emerge from one or both of the remaining branches, in a form like this...https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/black-spruce-competing-leader-theme.19927/page-6#post-668889
Could work as well.

I reckon throwing it in a large box would work just as well.
Half buried.
So long as the surface roots are getting airpruned, you really only need to keep the bottom ones isolated for easy future removal.

The Radialdisk ™ can be fashioned as so..

Radialayer™ a season saver.

Nutters, You may have noticed I almost always jump to recommending airlayers. I don't think I will ever lose my fascination with the process. In attempts to perfect it, I have worked out some tweaks so it is time to share my method. I don't understand haphazardly throwing long...

www.bonsainut.com

The most important part of the Radialdisk ™ is to provide a guide under which you can run a saw without the need to look at what you're cutting.
When I was growing these in the ground, I bought a wire saw to complete the cut.

wire saw - Google Search

I wouldn't know your English is second language!
I love your thirst for knowledge!

Sorce

Hi!

Before working on a bigger tree I prefer trying your technique on smaller and younger trees... I like them a lot but if something even happen, they are young pre-bonsai that helped learning something!

So here what I came up with, on a smaller scale as pot preparation / air layering and use of Radialdisk ™ for my pre bonsai maples!

I used this technique on 3 maples, that were ready to be repotted.
I took only one set of picture but the process is the same for all 3 so if I got it wrong for 1..... but hey I took the chance!

When starting thinking about your technique I must admit I had the a few things in mind but the overall appearance was ''important''... well a compromise as I dont have a large collection I still enjoy displaying my tree in the backyard so I also wanted a ''good looking'' pot...
I decided to invest in mica pots, they were 12$CDN each so basically nothing in USD!!! they can resist pretty much anything and can be easily modified.
I will for sure be able to re-use them so it was a no brainer.

Im a race car guy... I had to reduce the weigh of the pot make it more aerodynamic so holes were drilled everywhere at the bottom but you can't notice from a side view.




Mesh added inside



I used pool filter basket cut in 3 pieces , they were a perfect fit in the mica pots, for 5$ CDN I can cut 3 rings like this one, they are solid, will probably survive UV and I think I will be able to reuse them.
3 wires are added to attach the ring to the bottom of the pot, substrate is added in the pot to about 1/4 lower then the edge and the ring is anchored firmly.



Substrate is added in the colander part and The Radialdisk is there to support the lateral roots while the bottom tap root is allowed to escape further down the pot via middle hole.





The trees are anchored using the tap root, and in this example I can use a guy wire to create a bit of pressure on the Radialdisk hoping to change the surface roots angle a little bit.
I also add sphagnum moss on top of the colanders.



Hope it work!!
My plan is to be able to heavily water/feed theses trees, if the roots ever go down by the holes at the bottom of the pot before repotting I will simply add another pot under this assembly.

This was my preparation before working on my Spruce that will require a bigger version of theses pots.

Thanks again for showing us this technique @sorce and if people wants to discuss about anything above I'm all ears!
Ugo

 

[Potawatomi13]

Great artwork. Great style ideas. Tree can be shortish but needs huge tall sacrifice apex to grow big trunk. Do this first then cut back. After at least one year drying out BREAK off dead apex for natural look.

 

[sorce]

so I also wanted a ''good looking'' pot

So that's why!
I was wondering why such a nice pot.

It seems like it will perform, but we'll have to see how it does in the qualifiers.

Im a race car guy..

You gotta remember the ones winning this race are almost always ugly as shit!

Speed over beauty!

(Except for the marrying one!)

Sorce

 

[Ugo]

Hi!

Great artwork. Great style ideas. Tree can be shortish but needs huge tall sacrifice apex to grow big trunk. Do this first then cut back. After at least one year drying out BREAK off dead apex for natural look.

Thank you!
I will know this year if what Im doing in yerm of wiring worth it... Im not wiring to style the trees now but I always try to wire the trees to place the buds along the branches even on the ones I dont actually plan to use actually.
I doing this while making sure the branches are correctly spaced and will receive as much light as possible.
As you can see I could'nt make it for the Sango kaku and the Deshojo, leafs were already out.

But now its time to let them grow!

So that's why!
I was wondering why such a nice pot.

It seems like it will perform, but we'll have to see how it does in the qualifiers.

I will for sure report in 2 years as I assume that everything will be alright for theses little guys!

You gotta remember the ones winning this race are almost always ugly as shit!

Speed over beauty!

(Except for the marrying one!)

Yes you are right! Atleast for bonsai.

Now I will feed feed feed and water as I have nothing else to do then watching them grow and get ugly

Thanks again
Ugo