Collecting in America

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I think America has a vast resource of quality collectible material which will play a very important role in our bonsai future, if it is not raped by those who have been taught that collected stock is for all skill levels and working on such is the only way to obtain quality bonsai. Most of the people who first collect trees kill them, without the common sense to learn the techniques first. This quickly growing "gold rush" to have a collected tree will kill thousands of trees that had real potential.

Now if we factor in the businessmen who want to cash in on this resource and who collect hundreds of trees a year to sell to the mad rush of people collecting anything, anywhere, with or without permission, we are in for a world of trouble within a decade.

Japan learned the hard way, must we also?


There is little doubt that wild trees offer an artist very much and that quality bonsai can be made from such material. But we must remember that this is not a renewable resource, at least in or lifetimes and treat nature with the respect it deserves.

What is the solution? I don't think there is a easy one but I do know it is up to us to protect this resource for ourselves as well as for our children. I also know that businesses that specialize in collecting hundreds of trees simply for resale should be licensed and also required to return at least seedlings to the ground.

We need to think about this now instead of when it is too late.


What are your thoughts?


Will
 

chansen

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It's certainly an interesting question. And one that deserves some thought.

I think I would rather see a few businesses collecting and reselling trees. A business has a vested interest in the survival of the tree. This does not assure that the tree will live, or that it will live in the hands of the new owners. However, with the vested interest, they will either learn to keep the trees alive or go out of business. In either case, more trees will live in the long term.

Switching gears a little, there are only certain areas that are really at risk of being abused that could also be publicly regulated. If we discount all collecting on private land (there wouldn't be a reasonable way to regulate private land), and collecting performed in areas that are slated for logging (the trees collected in these areas would be lost during the logging, so if they died due to collection the net loss is zero, additionally, the logged areas will be replanted by the logging company). So if we scope the collection areas (and collectible trees) to public land not slated for logging, now we have a collection area where a removed tree would be difficult to replace and the death of a tree collected from this are would mean a big loss. I don't know how many public lands are open to tree collection that are not scheduled for logging, but I would imagine that they are fairly few.

As far as regulation... I don't see an implementable solution. It seems like the number of trees removed is limited by the Forest Service (just an observation, I definitely could be wrong). Their interests (I hope) are to maintain a healthy environment. It seems that to maintain a healthy logging environment there is a benefit to having the small trees removed. As for the non-logging areas, I don't know how they regulate the number of trees removed, but from the stories I have read it seems rather difficult to get permission to remove them.

Regarding trees collected in areas not slated for logging, I wonder how many bonsai enthusiasts live close enough to areas that are highly desirable for collecting. And of those, how many know where to go, and are physically capable of getting there, and returning with a tree.

I think there isn't as much serious damage done to the land as may be thought. Regulation would be very difficult to implement, and if someone really wants to collect outside of the regulation, they will.

I think the best solution is prudence and ethical decision making. If we can teach respect for the laws in place, and help individuals make ethical decisions we can achieve the desired ends of having the highest quality, collectible trees available for a long time.

Sorry for the length. Today was my last day of work before my paternity leave starts, and I finally felt like I could put some thought into something other that work.
 

imholte

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I also know that businesses that specialize in collecting hundreds of trees simply for resale should be licensed and also required to return at least seedlings to the ground.

Will
If the collection is done on private land then you cannot regulate it, that is unless you own it.

The USFS has regulations on collecting trees and limits the number per year. There is no distinction from yamadori to sapling, only height of the tree. To them a tree is a tree. Planting of seedlings on USFS land is prohibited unless the tree came from a nursery that grows seedling from approved native "seed".

I agree that we all need to practice conservation when it comes to collecting.

What is considered yamadori? A collected seedling? A 10 year old tree? A tree that someone thinks will make a proper bonsai?
 

Tachigi

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I think America has a vast resource of quality collectible material which will play a very important role in our bonsai future, if it is not raped by those who have been taught that collected stock is for all skill levels and working on such is the only way to obtain quality bonsai. Most of the people who first collect trees kill them, without the common sense to learn the techniques first. This quickly growing "gold rush" to have a collected tree will kill thousands of trees that had real potential.

There is a learning curve for all when first venturing out in the wild to collect their first prize. Failure is part of the learning process and is a realistic expectation even for a person who has boned up on technique. I think there are very few that can raise there hand and say I didn't screw the pooch when I collected my first few yamadori. I found experience is the best teacher.


Gold Rush?...What gold rush? More imported and nursery material are sold than yamadori. For no other reason than there is more of it. Walk into any "bonsai nursery" Bonsai west, New England Bonsai, Royal Gardens and the amount of nursery stock far over shadows yamadori material. If you use the forums as a cross section of the bonsai community the amount of yamadori is a small fraction of the total amount of material offered.

As far as private collection goes, you are using a pretty wide brush stroke with some of these statements. A yamadori with true "potential' are not found by the thousands but by possibly the hundreds. Thats what makes them rare, not the fact that they were found living outside a container.


Now if we factor in the businessmen who want to cash in on this resource and who collect hundreds of trees a year to sell to the mad rush of people collecting anything, anywhere, with or without permission, we are in for a world of trouble within a decade.

Based on your statements so far its wrong for the private collector to pursue yamadori because they will be killed by the thousands. It is also wrong for the experienced professional to collect by the hundreds even though they will live. So if you had to choose a lesser of two theoretical evils which one would it be, 100s that are alive or 1000s that are dead. You don't get to choose both ;)

Japan learned the hard way, must we also?

This comparing apples to oranges in a way. Don't get me wrong I am all for conserving our resources.
However.......
In Japan's culture almost every man, woman, and child participated in one form or another when it came to bonsai. This is a far cry from the participation here in the states where the bonsai community makes up a minute fraction of the US population. Land mass size between the two countries is quite different to say the least. So the ratio of people collecting in relationship to land mass here and in Japan in there hay day is night and day. Also Japan did not also deplete their yamadori in a decade it took much longer than that, centuries in fact with a population that was all consumed by bonsai culture.



There is little doubt that wild trees offer an artist very much and that quality bonsai can be made from such material. But we must remember that this is not a renewable resource, at least in or lifetimes and treat nature with the respect it deserves.

No argument from me, a true and responsible statement. A good argument to be very selective when evaluating a tree before its wrestled from the ground.


What is the solution? I don't think there is a easy one but I do know it is up to us to protect this resource for ourselves as well as for our children. I also know that businesses that specialize in collecting hundreds of trees simply for resale should be licensed and also required to return at least seedlings to the ground.

Commercial enterprises that legally sell any type of trees "full time" as a primary source of income have to be licensed. While I would be first in line to replenish the natural resource it is discouraged by the USDA and EPA. There reasoning as I understand it is, that there would be no control over such reforestation and that unsuitable cultivators of a species could be planted. This is a common statement made when one offers to replace what they took from a national park or state park as part of the negotiating deal to get in or get a permit.


We need to think about this now instead of when it is too late.


What are your thoughts?

Will

I think your heart is in the right place Will. I do question this topic following so closely behind the topic of nursery material.;) It would be interesting to see this rewrote with some substantial facts (if thats even possible) of the actual mortality rates of yamadori and consumer habits pertaining to yamadori. That might give us a realistic look at the state of this type of material.
 
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There is a learning curve for all when first venturing out in the wild to collect their first prize. Failure is part of the learning process and is a realistic expectation even for a person who has boned up on technique. I think there are very few that can raise there hand and say I didn't screw the pooch when I collected my first few yamadori. I found experience is the best teacher.
True, but must this experience be gained on 100 year or older trees? I personally have a few wonderfully twisted Jack Pines with incredible trunks marked in my GPS, yet over the last three years I have only collected younger trees and saplings from the area. Why? I am learning about the species, how they react and how they recover. I have lost some trees but the ones I have lost are young, easily replaced. The experience I have gained will help assure the survival of the ones not so easily replaced....that is how one gains experience,. If you want to be a boxer, you don't fight your first fight with the champ or it'll likely be your last.


Gold Rush?...What gold rush? More imported and nursery material are sold than yamadori. For no other reason than there is more of it. Walk into any "bonsai nursery" Bonsai west, New England Bonsai, Royal Gardens and the amount of nursery stock far over shadows yamadori material. If you use the forums as a cross section of the bonsai community the amount of yamadori is a small fraction of the total amount of material offered.

As far as private collection goes, you are using a pretty wide brush stroke with some of these statements. A yamadori with true "potential' are not found by the thousands but by possibly the hundreds. Thats what makes them rare, not the fact that they were found living outside a container.
I am sure someone in the past said the exact same thing in Japan. Once the quality trees were depleted, anything that could be collected was, many were collected just to put in the ground at nurseries.



Based on your statements so far its wrong for the private collector to pursue yamadori because they will be killed by the thousands. It is also wrong for the experienced professional to collect by the hundreds even though they will live. So if you had to choose a lesser of two theoretical evils which one would it be, 100s that are alive or 1000s that are dead. You don't get to choose both
I would choose regulation, permits and limits, the same methods used to protect our other resources. When I bow hunt here in Michigan I buy a license that allows me two deer. When I take one I have to tag it with one of two tags I get. Sure there are and always will be poachers, but the fines are hard and heavy if you get caught. When I bow hunt in Canada, the system is the same, but I pay more for not being a resident.

This will happen with trees sooner or later, once enough people steal trees, leave unfilled holes and garbage behind, and people start noticing the market for such...a bad name will be given to us and fights will start along the lines of the ORV fights. When trees that hikers and outdoorsmen have enjoyed for years suddenly disappear, someone will take notice.

It is not the ethical collector or business that concerns me, it is the unethical collectors that do, again read the forums, there are far more than most would like to believe, and these are just the ones who admit it.


This comparing apples to oranges in a way. Don't get me wrong I am all for conserving our resources.
However.......
In Japan's culture almost every man, woman, and child participated in one form or another when it came to bonsai. This is a far cry from the participation here in the states where the bonsai community makes up a minute fraction of the US population. Land mass size between the two countries is quite different to say the least. So the ratio of people collecting in relationship to land mass here and in Japan in there hay day is night and day. Also Japan did not also deplete their yamadori in a decade it took much longer than that, centuries in fact with a population that was all consumed by bonsai culture.
Given our history of exploitation, I would place my money on the thought that as soon as more people realize that a tree they can get for next to nothing can be sold for hundreds or even thousands of dollars, tree poachers will abound. Just read the forums and see all the justifications given for collecting without permission, and these are for saplings and seedlings! Killing a few here and there won't bother them, if 10 out of 20 die, they'll just collect 40 next time.

Japan had a different culture then, today you can read stories about trees that were sawed off and potted and sold at a market there....it's a different world now then it was when Japan depleted its resources. What took centuries there can take decades or less here.

Commercial enterprises that legally sell any type of trees "full time" as a primary source of income have to be licensed. While I would be first in line to replenish the natural resource it is discouraged by the USDA and EPA. There reasoning as I understand it is, that there would be no control over such reforestation and that unsuitable cultivators of a species could be planted. This is a common statement made when one offers to replace what they took from a national park or state park as part of the negotiating deal to get in or get a permit.
Fees and licenses to collect, on top of business license would create funds for this type of replacement. But the sad fact is, once a 200 year old tree is collected, surviving or not, it is gone from the environment forever. We must consider this when collecting.

Before seedlings planted ever have a chance to become 200 + year old yamadori, all of us and most of our bonsai will be gone, and possibly most of the wild collectible trees as well. What will be left? Some jerk somewhere in some other country may be saying look what happened with America and all the wonderful yamadori they once had.

All I am saying is that education and respect for nature must come before the need to have a collected tree or for the need to use these wonders as a means of income. We shouldn't encourage beginners to collect trees, we shouldn't discourage other sources of stock to learn on, and we should take our resources seriously and assure that responsible collecting is done and this is accomplished best by being there.


Lastly, the logging argument has never held water with me, trees we look for are not logged and often do not grow where logging takes place or they would not be here today.
 

imholte

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Lastly, the logging argument has never held water with me, trees we look for are not logged and often do not grow where logging takes place or they would not be here today.
When I used to be a logger, I found tons of trees that would have made a good addition to my collection. These were within the unit we were logging. Many of the trees were in units that had been logged in years past. They had been run over and squashed yet survived and were quite knarly.

When I go looking for trees I go to the forest, which is usually where logging takes place.

I think people are putting a false sense of value on yamadori, they are only as good as people think, only worth what people will pay. In the end they are no different than the fern growing next to it or the 200 foot tall douglas fir towering over.

If more and more yamadori are collected wont the market flood and prices go down?

What about the millions of trees logged each year, how many yamadori are taken each year?

This raises alot of different questions, what is the right answer? Sustainability?
 

milehigh_7

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While I am fairly new to bonsai, I am not new to my love of trees, especially the trees that most eyes will never see. I miss my years backpacking the fourteeners of Colorado. I don't think you have lived until have been to timberline and gaze with wonder at the true masterpieces there. Encountering the astonishing will to live and struggle to do so is a spiritual experience. It is this love that draws me to bonsai.

It seems that part of the solution may be for those of us who are involved in the art to love the trees still in the earth as much as we love the ones in the pots. If you were given a work of art from Walter or some other master, how carefully would you treat it? Would you take a great deal of time and maybe even seek advice on how to best tend it?

Why then should we treat the works of the true master artist any differently? The trees that the creator has been working on for hundreds of years or more deserve at least as much consideration don't you think?

I promise I could collect Juniperus scopulorum in my dad's yard that would make you all cry but I don't. Why? Because I am a noob and I would kill them. However, I may one day try some after I practice for a few more years. Who knows I may even ask one of you to teach me.

We of the bonsai community should lead the world in our concern for nature. If we don't, shame on us.
 
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Mark

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Would the same trees be collected by a Bonsai Artist as would be by a someone who sells what he collects? My thoughts are that an Artist will be more selective and would pass up most of what I see posted for sale. A mining example might compare strip mining to panning for gold in a stream.
For some reason it reminds me of the HGH situation with athletes. So kid, you want world class trees in no time, I can make it happen for you, take a look at these babies! Nick Lenz made note of short cuts employed on collected trees at this years Ginko Show as attempts to present world class trees in no time. The race is on, no time to waste...

Mark
 
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Good points Mark.

This may be a god time to re-quote a small part of Dan Barton's recently posted profile at AoB on the subject of Yamadori.

"In any case, collected material is by no means the only source of material that will result in good bonsai. Many of the finest classical bonsai have been created from cultivated material. Notably, some of the great broom style zelkovas, some of the mountain and trident maples and a host of other examples can easily be seen if one refers to some of the earlier copies of the Japanese exhibition souvenir books. After all, where in the wild would one stumble across a yamadori zelkova or maple worth collecting? Do not allow yourself to be seduced by the current international trend that considers yamadori material to be, the be all and end all, of good bonsai. That is rubbish and has only arisen because we in the west tend to be in such a hurry and at the same time we mustn’t discount the quick and lucrative turnover that can be obtained from the sale of bonsai created from collected trees. This latter point is, I think, getting closer to the real motivation behind creating bonsai from yamadori material. It sells well! The bone fide bonsai enthusiast who has neither the financial means to buy trees nor the ability to acquire collected material is quite content to bimble along enjoying the hobby without getting caught up in the ‘you know what!

Enormous pressures by the yamadori boffins is being directed at the whole of the bonsai scene and it is very difficult for ‘Mr Ordinary Bonsai Man’ to enjoy any credibility. This fact is doing so much damage to our hobby as its practice only caters for a very small minority of enthusiasts who have the financial means to pursue it. It is also setting such impossibly high standards of attainment that many aspiring bonsai enthusiasts are being driven away from the hobby because they are finding it too difficult to keep up and are often ashamed of their humble efforts. This really hurts me!

There are of course very many advantages in using yamadori material but remember it is mostly the quality of the trunk and mature bark or natural shari that is the prime attraction. If nebari (root ramification) and branching is to be considered this often falls short of ideal and some pretty ugly, over-heavy roots can exist and badly placed branches can too. With bonsai created from non-yamadori sources one can often gain far better control of the nebari and branch structure than is possible with collected material. There are of course exceptions to this!

Remember too that Mother Nature is mostly responsible for the design and quality of trunk character with yamadori material and not the bonsai artist."



I posted this again because Dan brushes upon some of the points made in the discussion here and because Dan is a respected artist who has become an icon in the bonsai community.



Will
 

Rick Moquin

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A fitting quote indeed! I copied this passage...

It is also setting such impossibly high standards of attainment that many aspiring bonsai enthusiasts are being driven away from the hobby because they are finding it too difficult to keep up and are often ashamed of their humble efforts.
... although unrelated to this thread in particular, I have personal experience wrt the statement Dan made. I've had an interest in bonsai some 20-25 years ago, but was dissuaded. Why? Well back then the internet did not exist and from what I was able to get my hands on as far as reference was that bonsai had special needs and required a conservatory of some sorts, with regulated temperature and humidity to maintain bonsai. IIRC tropicals in those days were not a bonsai subject. The conservatory was needed to overwinter trees, which as we now know is possible without the use of a conservatory.

So yes based on the discussion of the last 4-6 months, I wonder how many possible enthusiasts have been driven away with the conversation that has transpired surrounding this subject and similar threads where exuberance played an major role in the discussion.
 

agraham

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Good points Mark.

This may be a god time to re-quote a small part of Dan Barton's recently posted profile at AoB on the subject of Yamadori.



I posted this again because Dan brushes upon some of the points made in the discussion here and because Dan is a respected artist who has become an icon in the bonsai community.



Will
Just another man's opinion Will.This barely touches on the subject of this thread unless of course,your intent was to promote a continuation of your argument that for great bonsai,nursery material is just as good a starting point as yamadori.I won't argue against that point because I happen to agree with you.But,Mr. Barton's inclusion that part of the popularity of collected material is based on the profit motive is no less insulting to some than to you is the opinion that your incessant linking to a site you control is based less on shoring up your points than promoting your site.Of course...there may be some truth to both opinions.Only the "profiteers" and you know for sure.
 
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This barely touches on the subject of this thread unless of course,your intent was to promote a continuation of your argument that for great bonsai,nursery material is just as good a starting point as yamadori....
I believe such passages as the following are indeed directly related to the subject at hand, in fact it touches on points already made here.

"Do not allow yourself to be seduced by the current international trend that considers yamadori material to be, the be all and end all, of good bonsai. That is rubbish and has only arisen because we in the west tend to be in such a hurry and at the same time we mustn’t discount the quick and lucrative turnover that can be obtained from the sale of bonsai created from collected trees. This latter point is, I think, getting closer to the real motivation behind creating bonsai from yamadori material. It sells well! The bone fide bonsai enthusiast who has neither the financial means to buy trees nor the ability to acquire collected material is quite content to bimble along enjoying the hobby without getting caught up in the ‘you know what!"

I do however have to point out a falsehood in your last post. You said "unless of course,your intent was to promote a continuation of your argument that for great bonsai,nursery material is just as good a starting point as yamadori." Nothing could be further from the truth, I have never claimed any source was better, worse, or otherwise from any other source. What I have repeatably said is that source, price, location does not assure quality stock and that great bonsai can be created from material from all sources and all price ranges.


I won't argue against that point because I happen to agree with you.But,Mr. Barton's inclusion that part of the popularity of collected material is based on the profit motive is no less insulting to some than to you is the opinion that your incessant linking to a site you control is based less on shoring up your points than promoting your site.Of course...there may be some truth to both opinions.Only the "profiteers" and you know for sure.
Might as well point out these falsehoods as well while I'm at it.

1) Aob was linked to because I directly quoted from an interview there. Listing sources when quoting or hot-linking content is not only a accepted practice, but indeed a required one, please see the policies.

2) AoB is not controlled by me, it is in fact a democracy. Every decision and every piece of content posted there went though an approval process in which every editor had the opportunity to approve or disapprove such. For the record, AoB is owned by it's editors, all equally.

Please at least get your facts straight before you toss around insults.



Will
 
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Vance Wood

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Just another man's opinion Will.This barely touches on the subject of this thread unless of course,your intent was to promote a continuation of your argument that for great bonsai,nursery material is just as good a starting point as yamadori.I won't argue against that point because I happen to agree with you.But,Mr. Barton's inclusion that part of the popularity of collected material is based on the profit motive is no less insulting to some than to you is the opinion that your incessant linking to a site you control is based less on shoring up your points than promoting your site.Of course...there may be some truth to both opinions.Only the "profiteers" and you know for sure.
Just to dispel the profit argument on the AoB side of the issue no one makes any money off the site, all funds raised go to supporting and maintaining the actual site and providing for the awards given out on the contests. As to the motives of the professional collectors, I suppose you can raise that argument in the cynical atmosphere we all breath but in fact, I believe most of these guys do what they do first because they enjoy doing it. Most of us that do bonsai professionally do it because we enjoy it. There are a lot more lucrative ways to make a living populated by fewer critics than bonsai, but the fact remains, it is the American dream to be able to support yourself doing what you love doing. So for all of you that make your living doing bonsai I salute you, may you prosper and do well. Your success will benefit all of us. For those of you that grow Crapsai to sell to the unsuspecting and ignorant I give you the finger, may that finger get stuck in your eye.
 

agraham

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Just to dispel the profit argument on the AoB side of the issue no one makes any money off the site, all funds raised go to supporting and maintaining the actual site and providing for the awards given out on the contests. .
I realize that, Vance.Profit is not always manifested in dollars and cents.

As a capitalist myself,I have no problem with the profit motive as long as it is acknowledged and the opportunities are reciprocal.
 

agraham

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I do however have to point out a falsehood in your last post. You said "unless of course,your intent was to promote a continuation of your argument that for great bonsai,nursery material is just as good a starting point as yamadori." Nothing could be further from the truth, I have never claimed any source was better, worse, or otherwise from any other source. What I have repeatably said is that source, price, location does not assure quality stock and that great bonsai can be created from material from all sources and all price ranges.



Might as well point out these falsehoods as well while I'm at it.

1) Aob was linked to because I directly quoted from an interview there. Listing sources when quoting or hot-linking content is not only a accepted practice, but indeed a required one, please see the policies.

2) AoB is not controlled by me, it is in fact a democracy. Every decision and every piece of content posted there went though an approval process in which every editor had the opportunity to approve or disapprove such. For the record, AoB is owned by it's editors,

Please at least get your facts straight before you toss around insults.





Will
"I do however have to point out a falsehood in your last post. You said "unless of course,your intent was to promote a continuation of your argument that for great bonsai,nursery material is just as good a starting point as yamadori." Nothing could be further from the truth, I have never claimed any source was better, worse, or otherwise from any other source. What I have repeatably said is that source, price, location does not assure quality stock and that great bonsai can be created from material from all sources and all price ranges."....Will

I don't think I said otherwise Will.....read "just as good"

"Might as well point out these falsehoods as well while I'm at it.

1) Aob was linked to because I directly quoted from an interview there. Listing sources when quoting or hot-linking content is not only a accepted practice, but indeed a required one, please see the policies.

2) AoB is not controlled by me, it is in fact a democracy. Every decision and every piece of content posted there went though an approval process in which every editor had the opportunity to approve or disapprove such. For the record, AoB is owned by it's editors,

Please at least get your facts straight before you toss around insults."....Will


My facts are straight Will.Some people think your links and threads are made specifically to promote a web site that you control(at least in part).Your response seems to indicate that you are insulted by that opinion.I said as much.Nothing more, nothing less.

andy
 
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... and seldom are these so called hot links, linked to anything but A of B and K of B. Great sites but not the only source(s) for information IOHO.
 
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....is no less insulting to some than to you is the opinion that your incessant linking to a site you control is based less on shoring up your points than promoting your site.Of course...there may be some truth to both opinions.Only the "profiteers" and you know for sure.
... and seldom are these so called hot links, linked to anything but A of B and K of B. Great sites but not the only source(s) for information IOHO.
Andy and Rick,

What I link to to support my claims has absolutely nothing what-so-ever to do with the topic at hand. Again, instead of intelligently debating the topic, you take the route of attacking the author. Let's just say you are correct for the benefit of the argument and I link solely to promote AoB and KoB, so what? What does that have to do with the topic at hand? Does it disprove what I have said here? Does it prove you are right? No, it does nothing at all and is just a lame attempt to change the focus from the subject to me.

If a drunk states that a person should not drink and drive is he right? Your methods would be to tell him that he is a drunk and by doing so, infer that his statement is incorrect, because how could a drunk dare to say not to drink?

However, now that I have pointed out that debating the merits of what I link to is totally unrelated to the subject being debated, I'll say that your assumptions are wrong on many levels, namely:

1) What I link to is directly related to the subject at hand, it is the content that should be weighed, not where it was linked from.


2) Being an editor at both AoB and KoB, I have a working knowledge of all the content available and as such, I can instantly pull up a source to support my claims. More people should do this but too many people just sprout off "opinions" without sources, examples, or other supporting documentation.


3) I don't only hot-link exclusively to AoB or KoB, as the following two examples will show.

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13659&postcount=2

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13660&postcount=3

I really am not going to take the time to find more, these are recent.


4) I link to other sites on a regular basis if needed to show something or to support my thoughts.

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14228&postcount=11

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14713&postcount=2

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10893&postcount=1


I also link often to Brent's articles simply because there is no better source for cultivation information on the web. The same could well be said for AoB and artistic information as it pertains to bonsai. or interviews, or galleries of some of the best artists of our time...quite simply there is no place else to go to for such a collection, period.


5) AoB and KoB are both non-commercial sites, not an ad to be found anywhere, what little income comes in is in the form of donations, our server space is donated, our hosting fees are donated, our domain name fees are donated, our contest prizes are donated, even all the time the editors put into bringing the community such great content...is donated. The bonsai blog collection at KoB is non-income producing as well.... and...we offer it all free, hell we don't even require people to be members to see the content or participate in the contests!

So if I ever was to decide to link there for promotional reasons, so what?


Now can we kindly stay on the topic?




Will
 
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Will,

Please don't bunch me up with Andy in this debate. My comment was a simple observation and has nothing to do with capitalism. You may or may not realize that the majority of the time your links are to the aforementioned sites, although at times there may have been a better link. I don't care to prove or dispel this observation nor do I feel the need to sift through hundredths of post to corroborate this observation.
And again, if that truly is the case, so what?

What the*!@*!!% does that have to do with collecting trees in America?


Will
 

Vance Wood

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Sometimes you go with the information, resource, and what-ever that you are familiar with, have access to, and know where it is. Just because it happens to be located somewhere you have a degree of control over does not invalidate or somehow diminish the information unless it is false; in that case it should be debated.

In this case referencing AoB and KoB for information I find neither bad or self serving but a validation of the original intent of both sites; to provide an easy access to a great deal of bonsai related information offered up by some of the best masters, experts and amateurs alive today. It can be argued that maybe someone else somewhere else has a better idea on a particular matter then that referenced on AoB or KoB. If that is the case it can be discussed, or as often works on the "Net", argued, while some sort of consensus or conclusion can be reached. In short I find no fault with Will offering links to AoB or Kob for articles, opinions and comments on a host of subjects discussed here as being self serving. If you think about it this is a silly argument.

If I happen to be a mechanic and own a very large tool box with a host of tools in it do I refuse to offer one of my tools when needed because it was one of my tools used the last time a tool was needed, suggesting instead that the individual in need go looking for assistance somewhere else? Hey look, if you know of another source post it for crying out loud.
 

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As for me I would like to throw this up for consideration. For what ever reason a few of us think or feel that another few of us are purposefully provoking, maligning or otherwise calling them low down and foul smelling. I don't think that is the case but you know how tender a bruise can be, just the slightest touch can brings tears to the eyes, and there have been a lot of bruises levied around the net recently. Please, stop and think before you poke.
 
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