Collecting pine from sand/gravel soil.

[eryk2kartman]

Sounds like a good plan

BTW where is this place located, i mean mountains, near water reservoir etc?
I leave near the lake and here are some pines that grow in sandy/gravel soil at the edge of the lake, and they have plenty of feeder as they dont need to reach to far to get a water......

 

[adoku]

I collected the pine yesterday. It was an adventure.

When I arrived to the arrea I noticed to my surprise that almost all trees have been cutt down. Almost got heart failure thinking they cutt that yamadori down.. But luckily it was there. All other pines in that area was chopped, even the 2 ones just 1 meter from it. They cutt down smal forrest groups too and this pine was growing right next to a small forest group, they might come back today to finish that forrest group and would finish this pine too. I doubt it would live long out there. If I decided to collect today it might now have been there. I was in that area 2 days ago and it was untouched..

I dug a trench 60+cm around the nebari and worked my way in. When i got closer to the nebari i could just shake the sand down into the trench from beneath and The roots apeared, close to untouched. After i carefuly and patiently removed the sand while having ants in my pants biting me, i could easily just lift the tree with out any pulling. The sand fell and the tree was free. (Might add that it was raining 2-3 days ago) Then I shook off the sand that was left, so i bare rooted it but left what did not fall off. The sand would crumble and fall anyway when i started potting so i shook it off. By the way, I potted it on sight, right after collection

I thought the roots would stretch much further but they was just about the length i dug the trench, maybe 1 or 2 went beyond the trench, (although it could been a root from another pine near by). The fact that it had so many taproots is most likely the reason the roots did not stretch too far.

It took me a while to finish potting it, and my spray bottle literaly stoped working already when i was digging.. So the roots were dry most of the time.. But it was late evening so there was never direct sunlight on them. I poured water on the roots from a bottle before potting, it took a moment too position it and make it firm with wires, but as soon as I got it in best position possible then i sprinkled rootgrow mycorhizza on the roots and soil (i also sprinkled myco on the ground soil before putting the tree in) and I also mixed myco into the soil. Then i threw bunch of soil over the roots to avoid them from being in air any longer.. The soil was not wet or dry but more dry, hopefully it could protect the some what dry roots.. What took the most time when potting was covering airpockets with a chopstick, probably 45-60 min. There was so many roots every where so the soil kept falling in and still was doing a little bit when i finished, but i got it covered good. I might did minimal damage to roots while using the chopstick, or not, not sure. By the way i did not chop any roots at all, just left them same as I collected them.

It got dark, by the time i was potting. So i used the headlights from the car to see, and right when i finished potting and was gathering the tools,, The car battery dies.. I wait couple of mins to see if the battery would recover, but it still won't start.. Im in pitch black at midnight in a semi forrest and the roots need water asap.. So i walk on the dirt road out of the forrest to the main road in hopes of cars passning by that could kick start my car, but there's low trafic on that road at night.. Only one truck passes by.. So i head back to the car and now I'm ready to push the car home, because the roots need water. Its not too far back, maybe around 3km. But to my luck when i got back to the car the battery have recovered enough for the car to start with minor struggle. This whole scenario took aproximetly 30 min.. Soon as I got home i watered it with 7-8 liters of water and could finally be at peace. What a journey!


Now i got a few questions.

Is it possible to use too much myco? Because i think i used more than needed.. Could that be a issue?

Btw i did not see anything white, no trace of myco on or near the roots, did it live in some other symbiosis in the sand?

Is it a big issue that the roots were mostly dry and took a while before watering? They for sure are wet now.

Should i cutt the higher branch to balance with the roots? Maybe not needed sinces i got basicaly all roots, and also i did cut few branches last year. So maybe its balanced already.

I had plans to remove that higher branch in the future anyway, but if possible then i'd keep it so there's more foilage to help produce roots.
Although after potting it Kinda do look Nice with that higher branch when its in this new position.

 

[adoku]

The red arrows are all trees that been layed down..

The white stuff in the pot is the mycorhizza that i sprinkled over the roots, unfortunately the roots were kinda dry so the crumbles didnt stick to the roots, but i put in plenty, so the myco will surely find the roots once they start growing.

I think those lighter roots might be grass roots or something else.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Tree location was never given and your location needs added to profile please. With good roots possibility to survive at lease 50/50 good. Added mycorhizza not needed. Already will be on roots. Not always white/obvious. Next time remember to bring H2O and plastic garbage bags for under wet container. Tree "could" be as old as 60 years based on size/bark but not necessarily. Maybe as little as 20. Single flush pine rule generally is ONE insult per year! Repot is all for this year. IF tree survives WELL could wire late next Winter and preserve all foliage/needles for a couple years. For now just concentrate on survival.

 

[TomB]

Good story. I think you've got a fair chance of it living. Now leave it alone for a couple of years. Your soil doesn't look great, but it shouldn't be a problem in the short term - just take care not to over-water.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

The amount of roots you got is encouraging. Did you secure the tree to the container to immobilize it? Agree with @TomB that your soil choice is not good.

 

[eryk2kartman]

Looks good and im surprised with amount of roots you could get, well done, and nice story too, its great to have some story for the tree.....
As other said, the soil could be better and more free drainage. If that tree was only put in that crate1-2 days ago i would try to change the substrate, if you can not get hands on anything else, like sanicat or something, i would add more sifted perlite and sifted potting grit just to make better drainage, the crate you have is quite big and it will be hard to get it dry(pine like dry)

and leave it alone until Winter/Spring 2023

 

[ShadyStump]

Collecting SHOULD ALWAYS be an adventure!

I agree with others that the state of the roots is very encouraging, but disagree with any attempt to change the soil at this time. I've had terrible luck trying to do that, losing every pine I've done it to.

I suggest the chopstick method to measure water holding. Stab a wooden chopstick to the bottom of the box right under the base of the tree and leave it there. To check how wet the soil is, gently pull the chopstick out. If it's wet anywhere don't water, then place it back exactly where it was. Check again in a day or two. When the chopstick is dry, the soil is dry.

Don't forget to add your location to your profile. And if the tree dies, don't get discouraged. It's just an excuse to go have more adventures.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

It looks like you got a decent amount of fine roots, and I am not real experienced collecting from the wild, but from what I have heard you don’t want to shake off any soil, but wrap it in plastic to try and keep it in place. Also “drying out a little,” is the last thing you want to have happen when bare roots a pine. Bring a spray bottle next time. Extra myco won’t hurt anything. I wouldn’t do any cutting or balancing or changing of substrate. Just leave it along other then periodic watering for a good few years and hope for the best. Cool tree, I hope it pulls through.

 

[hinmo24t]

i have successfully collected similar pitch pine with less roots than you and they survived thru a winter, etc. and then transplanted to ground.

those pines look badass id try to get a few of them if i were you

 

[Wulfskaar]

That is a great yamadori story! If it survives, it was meant to be since you got lucky with it not getting chopped down like everything around it and also got lucky with decent looking roots. Hopefully you keep updating the progress here.

 

[Alain BERTRAND]

With that many roots, survival is warranted in a around 100 % granular substrate. Your seems truly horrible. Wash it away and replace it now!
I have collected pines with less than 5 % of the amount of root you have and all of them survived. But I watered them up to 10 times a day (it was during lock down ) so that the little amount of roots were always able to pump water. With your substrate, you'll got root rot soon.

 

[adoku]

Unfortunately i did not have better soil, but i mixed alot of pumice and sand in the soil, little bit perlite too.. I got a bit worried at first that the soil might be to thick but it accually dried up farely fast, and The soil is pretty porous. At the bottom of the pot i added a good layer of leca so it should dry up good from beneath too.. When i push in i chopstick in the soil the stick returns farely dry.. But i will do that someone mentioned leave a stick in the soil to keep track of the moisture level.. Also yes i did secure the tree good in the pot..

In hindsight im thinking i probably should left as much sand as possible once i got it out.. Although it would be higher up in the pot and probably most sand would separate in the process.. Its my first time collecting a pine, this will be a learning experience regardles if it survives or not.. But i'll keep the hope up. Tomorrow it will be warmer and more sun so i will let the sun help dry out the soil some more.

I collected a birch last year that had very little roots and planted it in same soil but less sand and pumice. This year a month ago when i repotted the birch it was absolutely full of roots so i could easy trim off alot and now its in a nicer pot and it look very happy with beautiful healthy new leafes..

This soil is good for producing new roots and more roots.. So that might be an advantage for the pine, plus all the mycorhizza i put in. Once the myco developed and connected with the pine roots it will probably help the pine recover better. I will not repot or change soil, just hope for the best.

There are things i could done better but it is a learning process.

 

[ShadyStump]

Two things I've learned in life:
1: There's always something you could have done better.
2: You learn faster when you don't worry about what you could have done better.

 

[MaciekA]

Unfortunately i did not have better soil, but i mixed alot of pumice and sand in the soil, little bit perlite too.. I got a bit worried at first that the soil might be to thick but it accually dried up farely fast, and The soil is pretty porous. At the bottom of the pot i added a good layer of leca so it should dry up good from beneath too.. When i push in i chopstick in the soil the stick returns farely dry.. But i will do that someone mentioned leave a stick in the soil to keep track of the moisture level.. Also yes i did secure the tree good in the pot..

In hindsight im thinking i probably should left as much sand as possible once i got it out.. Although it would be higher up in the pot and probably most sand would separate in the process.. Its my first time collecting a pine, this will be a learning experience regardles if it survives or not.. But i'll keep the hope up. Tomorrow it will be warmer and more sun so i will let the sun help dry out the soil some more.

I think you will be OK as long as you:

- Manage water/oxygen well (especially right now and the next ~90 days) staying on the somewhat dry side,
- Don't succumb to styling temptation until late 2022 or ideally 2023 (but don't mark your calendar, wait for feedback from the tree),
- Keep it out of drying winds,
- Keep the container from being moved around too much in the initial couple months (later, it will stiffen as the root system expands). Specifically protect from bending, shearing, and bottom-sagging when lifting (I like to add stiffness support to a recovery container if I know I will need to move them around or will want to look underneath for evidence of root growth)

If you want to accelerate your root recovery a bit (might be worth thinking about given your shorter growing season / cooler nights), you could consider adding bottom heat at ~25C or so. Even the most inexpensive seedling heat mats are good for this. A little bit of warmth may assist with cranking the water/oxygen pump as well.

I've collected pines of vaguely similar "transpiration class" (p. contorta) with far less rootage than the one you've collected, and they've all survived (the very risky ones had bottom heat support, though). Some bounced back within 12 months, others went nowhere in the first year and then exploded in the second year. In my attempts, whenever I had any rootage at all, I had a foothold and path to survival. As long as some roots exist, survival mostly depends on controlling for transpiration loss until you're past the "Danger Zone".

I think you're going to be OK as long as your recovery soil doesn't impede oxygen flow and you keep sunlight relatively high. You have a pretty attractive naturally-styled trunk and if I have any other advice to give it would be this: Waiting for the tree to give you back bushy foliage is worth it, don't be tempted to rush!

I strongly agree with @ShadyStump , with collecting you need to just dive in, try stuff, and take notes. Collect more of these if you can (perhaps some lower-value ones) to improve your understanding of p. sylvestris collection.

 

[ShadyStump]

When is the best time of the season to collect a pine tree particularly eastern Pines such as those found in New York? Also can be put into a bonsai container right away with or without root reduction? Thanks

As a rule, pines don't like their roots being touched at all, and can take a long time to recover, and hate bare rooting. The trick is to make it as smooth and gradual a transition for them as possible.
Collect right before dormancy- in my experience a couple weeks before the first expected hard freeze- or in spring just as it's starting to show fresh buds swelling. I've had better luck (not saying much there) with fall collecting. Do everything in your power to get as much root as possible, especially the fine hair type roots, and in as big a ball of native soil as you can manage. Keep it in as big a container as practicable for at least year to recuperate.

Pines are well known to be the finickiest of trees to bonsai, but are just amazing. They can survive almost anything, so long as they can do it their way.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Pines are well known to be the finickiest of trees to bonsai, but are just amazing. They can survive almost anything, so long as they can do it their way.

Completely different experience here having done MAJOR root removal from Bristlecone, Ponderosa, JBP even somewhat too late into April and amazingly they did well. Very surprised how many trees can deal well(survive)serious root work. Once understood at all and in good substrate of pumice pines are as childs play to live with.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Hello. I spotted one interesting pine last year which I prune semi hard, pruned the top off since it was very elongated, then i pruned couple branches that was growing in bad directions.. I left the pine with 2 branches. It looks good this year and i was thinking to collect, but i am worried it could be to traumatized and too chocked if i collect it, since it got pruned last year. Also because it grows in sandy/gravely area so i am concerned it might not make it because the roots are probably growing very long and i am not sure how many fine roots are closer to the trunk and if theirs enough fine roots to just dig a trench around it and lift it up. The roots are seen farely high up on the surface and they separate from the trunk into 5 maybe 6 roots that can be seen goin in to the ground. since there are 5ish roots that are almost finger thick growing in to the ground,, perhaps they all indivdualy have many fine roots on them, not to far from the trunk. In that case it could be safe to collect perhaps. Maybe thats enough roots for the 2 branches left? I am not sure what to do really. So i was thinking and came up with the idea of carefully digging around the roots from the top of the soil and removing the sand thats around there, then put a good soil mix around the roots near the surface and let it stay there for another year so it hopefully focuses on creating good feeding roots in the better soil near the top of the ground, and puts less energy on creating roots from those long roots growing away in the sand ( I will not touch those, just let them be ). Then next year prune the roots under the better soil and just lift up the pine with the soil i added. Could this work? I am not sure what soil to put around the roots. Maybe peat mixed with perlite and biochar, and maybe a little bit of a flower soil i have, its called ''urnjord'' in Swedish. I am not sure what type of soil it is exactly but here is a link https://www.hasselforsgarden.se/produkter/u-jord-urnjord/ it should be good with nutrients and good for root development. Or is it enough with just the 3 first ingredients? Or maybe something totally else? I dont have much sphagnum moss which i would use in the mix if i had more, but i need what i have left for another project. So i would use peat instead. PS. I am new to bonsai so i am still not very familiar with what soils are best for what species and yamadori.

Here are some images.. the one i draw on is kinda what it looked like last year before i pruned it, altho the top was even higher and very elongated with just 2 branches very separated from eachother.. Unfortunately i do not have a pre-prune picture.. These pictures are from mid-march this year.

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How has this tree done for you?

 

[Shogun610]

Update on this? Only critique I have is I would have used pumice and wrapped the rootball immediately to lose little soil /moisture post collecting.

 

[August44]

Sorry, I would not waste my time doing anything with that tree. Not a good candidate at all. Listen to what people are saying here and move on to a better specimen in a better location.

Also, this kind of reply..."If you go back and read what i wrote perhaps you could give a more helpful answer,"...is a little high and mighty for a new guy and is a bit offensive IMO.