Collecting with Roy Nagatoshi

mike108 · Mar 14, 2010

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art-rodriguez · Mar 14, 2010

junipers

excellent finds Mike !
keep us posted with progress etc.
are they all california junipers ?

mike108 · Mar 14, 2010

pYes they are all california junipers however they will be grafted with shimpaku foliage in a year or so.

Mike

treekutter · Mar 15, 2010

Nice ! You are lucky to have a place to collect. Keep us posted.

Si Nguyen · Mar 15, 2010

What a find! Good luck with them all. Don't keep them in water for more than a day. What little roots they have will die off in 2-3 days in city water. Use 100% pumice and a few handful of mountain soil which is mostly decomposed granite. Don't put any store-bought potting mix because it will kill your tree due to the sewage and manure sludge in them. 100% Pumice is best. If you need a lot of pumice, I can get you some from Orange County, but any farm supply store in your area should have it. If you don't have a greenhouse, then put a clear trash bag over the trees.
Sorry for the suggestions, I know you don't need them because you are collecting with Roy Nagatoshi. I just love to see collected Cali junipers but I hate to see them die.
Good luck again!
Si

PS. If you ever organize another collecting trip, can you put me on your list. I would be happy to pay for the chance to collect just one tree. Thanks!

Juniperus Californica · Mar 15, 2010

Hi California Juniper fans,

For what ever it's worth, here's my take on collecting junipers. Punice is good, but I do the following and have had great success:

1 - Start with a black plastic pot and drill small holes in the side everywhere
2 - Put volcanic scoria at the bottom
3 - Knock all of the mountain soil off of the roots (don't wash the roots)
4 - Trim the root ball to the size of a bonsai pot leaving as many fine root as possible
5 - Remember this is an "El Nino" year and the trees should be real healthy
6 - THIS IS KEY! Place the tree in the pot and use Acadama to cover the root ball
7 - If you collect some fungus from around the tree mix that in now
8 - Fill the pot the rest of the way with scoria
9 - Water thoroughly then bag the pot with a black trash bag so no water will get in
10 - If you have one, place the tree in a shaded (50% shade) greenhouse at 40 - 60% humidity
11 - No greenhouse, bag the entire tree and place in the shade.
12 - DON'T OVER WATER! The roots need to be moist not wet or they'll die!

Younger trees will have a better chance of success than real old trees but that's what we're shooting for, real old trees.

I've been to Roy's and I saw the trees they look great! If my advice helps I won't charge you, I'll just ask you to take me digging.

Juniperus Californica

Si Nguyen · Mar 15, 2010

I agree with all that completely J.C.. Those are good tips! Akadama is good too; I use it it for smaller stumps. I basically use the Boon's mix for most things except for the really big stumps. When you collect so many large stumps like in this case, it is much faster and simpler to use 100% pumice and some mountain DG. I agree with skipping the washing of the roots too, that's why I said don't leave it in water for too long. BTW, it is not really the water, but the chemicals in it that is bad for the new roots and beneficial fungus.

Here's another ancient Chinese secret from me, and this one is worth real money, and that is:
DO NOT USE STRAIGHT TAP WATER ON YOUR NEW STUMPS.

Age the tap water in a bucket first to allow the chlorine to evaporate (for at least one day), then water your new stumps with it sparingly for the next 12 months. Our city water in Southern California is really bad, especially in the summer months when they have to add more and more chemicals to make it safe for human consumption. The akadama layer is good because it retains moisture in its pore and raises the humidity around the root ball without keeping it soaking wet, thereby allowing one to water less.

Good luck again,
Si

Attila Soos · Mar 15, 2010

I think the bag is really important, because you can keep the plant moist without watering for an entire week. I always bagged my collected junipers and have not lost a single tree.
Not sure about the water, I always used tap water and it worked fine.

I wonder whether adding a few drops of acquarium chlorine remover would help (such as AquaSafe). It is beneficial for the fish, so I find it hard to believe that it would harm the roots. But I don't think that anybody has ever tested this, so I don't know.

Si Nguyen · Mar 15, 2010

Attila Soos said:
I think the bag is really important, because you can keep the plant moist without watering for an entire week. I always bagged my collected junipers and have not lost a single tree.
Not sure about the water, I always used tap water and it worked fine.

I wonder whether adding a few drops of acquarium chlorine remover would help (such as AquaSafe). It is beneficial for the fish, so I find it hard to believe that it would harm the roots. But I don't think that anybody has ever tested this, so I don't know.

Every city's water is different, and it is all much more chemically treated now than it used to be. Depending on the initial bacterial load, they have to add a lot of chlorine and many other chemicals to make it safe. Some days are worse than others too. Try spraying water into a bucket and smell how strong the chlorine is coming out of it. Fish can't survive in this water (mostly because their bacteria can't live in it. Koi keepers know this). It is not really that bad for the tree itself, but it is really bad for the bacteria and fungi from the mountain that are not used to it. For most trees, they should acclimate after awhile, except for sensitive Japanese imported trees like satsukis and maples and white pines which would never like our local water here.

mike108 · Mar 15, 2010

Well in this case i used pure lava rock (Roys Favorite mix) no need for a bag as we got LOTS of roots. The soil at uncles place is so soft we just put the shovel in and they popped right out no exaggeration, the soil felt like spagnum moss Roy said he had never gotten some so easily and is eager to go back next year as i am!

Juniperus Californica · Mar 15, 2010

Mike,

Why would you wait 'til next year? This is an El Nino year and you only get these every 7 - 10 years. The soil is good and the trees have all the roots because of all the rain we've gotten this year! I'd get back out there and do more collecting because your success rate will never be better than it is right now!

JC

Si Nguyen · Mar 15, 2010

Hi Mike, lava rock is better than pumice in many ways. It has larger pores. It is harder and it doesn't get all dusty like pumice. It is a lot heavier than pumice though, so a big pot of it might be too much for one person to carry. It looks a lot better than the ugly white pumice too.

Were you in the same class on Jaboticaba tree with me at the Anaheim convention a few years ago? How is your Jabo? Mine is doing really well. I took some cuttings from it already. Hmm, that practically made us old pal! Why wait until next year? Let's go tomorrow? Perfect weather now.

Just kidding with you!

Good luck to you Mike.
Si

ianb · Mar 15, 2010

I'm with JC and Si, it's a great time to collect.

Well, I'm free this weekend...what do you say Mike

mike108 · Mar 15, 2010

Si Nguyen said:
Hi Mike, lava rock is better than pumice in many ways. It has larger pores. It is harder and it doesn't get all dusty like pumice. It is a lot heavier than pumice though, so a big pot of it might be too much for one person to carry. It looks a lot better than the ugly white pumice too.

Were you in the same class on Jaboticaba tree with me at the Anaheim convention a few years ago? How is your Jabo? Mine is doing really well. I took some cuttings from it already. Hmm, that practically made us old pal! Why wait until next year? Let's go tomorrow? Perfect weather now.

Just kidding with you!

Good luck to you Mike.
Si

I was actually not in that convention. And yes lava is the best! I would have gone back myself however the weather today was in the high 80s and it is not expected to go down here in so cal, the spot i dug is very close to here and if the trees are dug out in that type of heat they wont make it.

Unfortunatley the last week to collect was last week

however there is next year so start making plans.

Juniperus Californica · Mar 16, 2010

Mike,

I don't know who's feeding you this info, but this is the perfect time to dig. The temperature has nothing to do with the survival, I've dug trees when it was 90 and 100 and they've lived. The fact that the trees are so hydrated and have roots is the determining factor. If you have the opportunity to dig and you don't take advantage now, you're crazy! I mean that in the nicest possible way.

I'm going digging this weekend and I'll send some pics if I can remember to bring my camera.

JC

mike108 · Mar 16, 2010

Juniperus Californica said:
Mike,

I don't know who's feeding you this info, but this is the perfect time to dig. The temperature has nothing to do with the survival, I've dug trees when it was 90 and 100 and they've lived. The fact that the trees are so hydrated and have roots is the determining factor. If you have the opportunity to dig and you don't take advantage now, you're crazy! I mean that in the nicest possible way.

I'm going digging this weekend and I'll send some pics if I can remember to bring my camera.

JC

My info is coming from Roy himself I would be crazy not to listen. However i do agree with you to an extent however the place were i dig is not as high elevation as were you dig i suppose therefore the trees come out of dormancy much sooner and will not survive in these temps.

Juniperus Californica · Mar 16, 2010

Mike,

I know Roy and I respect him very much, but I don't agree with him on this one. Truth be told, California Junipers can be collected at just about anytime of year, however winter and spring are the best because it's during or just after the rainy season. Harry Hirao collects from September 30th all the way through July and he has a pretty good success rate, that's not to say he doesn't lose a few, but Roy also loses a few.

I believe Roy stops collecting now because he leaves his trees under only shade cloth in Sylmar (he doesn't use a greenhouse or misting system). If he collects trees too late they won't have time to generate roots and begin to grow before it becomes blistering hot in his area (90 - 100 degrees). However, if you properly care for the trees, you can collect well into spring with great success. Don't forget, this is an El Nino year and the trees are very healthy because of all the rain, if you can go collect and you don't, shame on you!

JC

Si Nguyen · Mar 16, 2010

mike108 said:
I was actually not in that convention. And yes lava is the best! I would have gone back myself however the weather today was in the high 80s and it is not expected to go down here in so cal, the spot i dug is very close to here and if the trees are dug out in that type of heat they wont make it.

Unfortunatley the last week to collect was last week however there is next year so start making plans.

Thanks for the reply. I confused you with another Mike in Sylmar. Next year, if you ever feel like organizing a digging trip, please consider me. Like I said, I would be happy to pay just to dig for one tree. I think most people here would too. One Cali juniper a year is enough for me. Being in Southern California, we can always go out and buy them, but it is a lot more fun to go hunting for them in the mountains and hills of the desert.
Thanks.
Si

JasonG · Mar 16, 2010

Collecting Pine and Juniper in the Rockies in 90 to 100 degree temps is just fine. Middle of July in fact. Hard on the body but ok for the trees.

I would think the same is ok for California, I wouldn't hesitate to go. RIght now is a great time to collect in most places, we still have too much snow in the mts here BUT once it is gone I will be up there.

Mojosan · Mar 16, 2010

Collecting Pine and Juniper in the Rockies in 90 to 100 degree temps is just fine. Middle of July in fact. Hard on the body but ok for the trees.

I would think the same is ok for California, I wouldn't hesitate to go. RIght now is a great time to collect in most places, we still have too much snow in the mts here BUT once it is gone I will be up there

C'mon Jason, you don't have any mts where you live.....

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