Conceptual Styling: Reverse Taper Trunk

[lieuz]

I want to propose a concept. If say one should come across a very nice yamadori, showing great promise; however, has a reverse tapered trunk. You collect it grow it in a box but now you have to figure out a way to fix the taper. How would one go about fixing that? I did some research and there have been several who would suggest performing an invasive procedure to widen the trunk through brute force. I've seen a video where an owner would first use a chain saw to get the initial cut and then from there, he used wooden wedges to drive the trunk apart until the base is wider than the widest part of the trunk. I assume later on he will be inserting some sort of rock to create a root/trunk over rock thing going on. It looks pretty ugly to me, using that method. The other option was to air layer it. My understanding would be to air layer half of this and you'll get two trees basically. Any thoughts?

 

[sorce]

Maros' tip is worth reading before considering this.

In the PP tip thread.
(you can't know how that's funny till you know the 3 threads it combines, oddly, I think the same MEMBER created all 3)

Anywho....

I look straight to Europe/UK while reading this.

First.....
They're only collecting killer nebari.
If this doesn't have that....
Airlayer of course..
Longest path.

Second.....
Carve it......
You can control moisture from the top...
But splitting the trunk at the base is inviting soil wetness born shit you cant see for way too long..
Sounds stupid IMO. That's harsh I guess....
Cuz it can work..... But I cant recall any trees born of that....whereas carved trees are abound...and beautiful.

All the truth is in Europe.

Sorce

 

[Cmanz]

I don't know about correcting taper, but some trees break the rules and look awesome. This ginkgo is a bit grotesque but to me is what ginkgo bonsai should be.

 

[rockm]

Uh, just find better material ;-)...Yamadori with ugly reverse taper isn't "nice" yamadori. It is "not worth collecting" yamadori. Seriously, why put that kind of effort into it, when the whole idea of looking for yamadori is to start out with a decent trunk?

 

[lieuz]

@rockm you would think that! and as i was drawing this i really thought about it, why ARE people still collecting if trees are ugly.

 

[BobbyLane]

The ancient Oak in my avatar has reverse taper, although its a pollarded tree, it does happen in nature..its not a major fault on some styles, it doesnt look so bad if your tree has a great nebari or is to be styled as a broom. comes down to what you like i guess. older trees with great bark, powerful trunks, great nebari and branch movement can have some flaws, as long as it doesnt completely take over the image.

 

[MattE]

@rockm you would think that! and as i was drawing this i really thought about it, why ARE people still collecting if trees are ugly.

Are they ugly? i mean after all the research i have done ( And its alot!!!!! ) isnt this a form of art? so far from reading a shit ton on these forums people seem uber stuck up and everyone thinks they are grand master bonsai creators ( cue music ) ... cant you like something thats ugly or not normal.. can you have something bonsai that in y our own mind or opinion isnt completely how it should be but still looks good in your preference and not be criticised for it? i personally really like the ginkgo ect

 

[sorce]

MattE!

Comes in nice!

And hits em hard!

Congrats bro!

You are a Grandmaster top!

Sorce

 

[thumblessprimate1]

I don't know about correcting taper, but some trees break the rules and look awesome. This ginkgo is a bit grotesque but to me is what ginkgo bonsai should be.

Never seen that ginkgo before. I'd like a grotesque looking one too.

 

[Anthony]

It only matters when you exhibit, publicly.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Eric Group]

Are they ugly? i mean after all the research i have done ( And its alot!!!!! ) isnt this a form of art? so far from reading a shit ton on these forums people seem uber stuck up and everyone thinks they are grand master bonsai creators ( cue music ) ... cant you like something thats ugly or not normal.. can you have something bonsai that in y our own mind or opinion isnt completely how it should be but still looks good in your preference and not be criticised for it? i personally really like the ginkgo ect

Ugly/ pretty are relative and subjective. People posting pics of trees on a public forum or putting them in a show are opening their trees up for comment and some people will like them, some won't generally... Doesn't mean you can't do it or shouldn't do it, but if you are doing something non-traditional/ UGLY... There is a difference between people who do it after mastering bonsai and then taking the basics one step further, breaking "rules" and creating art... Ad someone who just has no idea what they are doing, sticks an ugly tree Ina pot and calls it a bonsai... It can take a while to differentiate between the two. Doesn't mean the guy who has no clue what he is doing shouldn't do it... But if he is going to do it, knowing he has no clue what he is doin, and open it for comment, then he should not get offended if people do not have nice things to say or recommend changes they think would make the tree better.

I think what is commonly mistaken for snobs and condescending comments by people new to bonsai/ Bonsainut, is USUALLY a well meaning more experienced person trying to get someone with no clue to understand what they can do to make a tree better and why people might be reacting negatively to it.

 

[thumblessprimate1]

Reverse taper isn't always a problem, but as a beginner I'd rather focus on getting the fundamentals down before heading into advanced territory. If I see nice yamadori with reverse taper, I'd keep it and save it for later.

Check out this nice Pinus densiflora over at John Milton's blog from May 10, 2014.

 

[Cypress187]

I saw it, but i think they need carving or other invasive methods to fix that.

 

[sorce]

rules

Very professionally put.
Great Post!

Sorce

 

[PaulH]

I've done a lot of yamadori collecting, and I certainly understand the temptation to collect inferior material "just because you can" or because it may have some feature that appeals. It is important to remember though, that we are collecting trunks, not finished trees. So trunk quality should make or break the deal when deciding whether to dig.

 

[sorce]

However.....

I wouldn't try a rookie hand at collecting said excellent material, as long as it can wait.....of it can't wait, seek knowledgeable help!

Practice practice practice!

Free craigslist ads, practice.
Take them straight to the garbage if you have to....but practice.....

I pull every rogue seedling I can......
For education. Look at the roots, the ripped off roots, see what is left, see how far down the roots start, note the soil type, position, foilage size, growth habits, and anything else that might serve me...

For practice.

Rock Great trees!

Practice on Crap!

Sorce

 

[M. Frary]

Practice on Crap!

Practice on crap and maybe the practice is crap.

 

[sorce]

Practice on crap and maybe the practice is crap.

The level of perfection in the practice is only defined by the practitioner themselves.

I can learn to winter a shitty base.
I can learn to wire on any branch of that particular species that has twigs the size of the practice I seek.
I can learn closer to exactly when to dig any prize specimen, by first digging shitty ones every week of the year. Albeit, size age, location, weather, moon, etc.,must be similar, or discounted when noted different.
I can learn if a trunk chop is successful on a species, and better the understanding, of how, when, why, and where, in increasing increments with the more shitty material I practice on.
I would rather learn how to
"Bend it till right before it cracks"
On shitty material.
I can practice wiring into a bonsai pot with shitty material.

I don't mind killing trees....
But I'm only gonna kill shitty ones...

Though, as I've said before, this games challenges are infinite.

I can highly increase my chances of success by doing everything I will ever need to do to shitty material....

Before I do it to good material...

That's why as well, I feel like Gary Woods idea of this, "keep potential problems at bay"....or PPB, as I call it, is so important.

This, PPB, should be the first thing learned, in this LONG game. Years of PPB is 90% of the time, beneficial. As in, we are letting the tree grow!

While newbs are doing this(PPB)with "good material", because they don't know how to do one of any task they come ask about, be it wiring, repotting, chopping.....

They should practice on shitty material.

All we can ever do it question.....
What is your microclimate like....
Forever.....

When they can take shitty versions of their good, in PPB, material, and get CORRECT answers under their Sun, with their rain, their soil, there clean or unclean, sharp or dull tools.

Otherwise people are like....

Why did my tree die?
You said I could cut it.....

But chyo sheers was dirty boy!

Sorce

 

[M. Frary]

ut I'm only gonna kill shitty ones...

If you only work on shitty trees you will only kill shitty trees.
And if you think of it as shitty you won't treat it like you would a good tree. You will more than likely care less about the crappy one than the good one.

 

[sorce]

That IS ALSO true.....

Also true, Smoke can shit a bonsai.

Also true......it still looks shitty!

Sorce