Good morning Vance,
There are a lot of Whats and ifs in that assumption Tom, and in light of this post whose business is it anyway? If the person in question has not listened to sound advise, assuming he has been getting it, for all these years what makes anyone think he is going to listen now when he is told his new tree is too advanced for him? Especially in view of the fact he has probably been deluged with a barrage of arguments as to why he should use better material?
Respectfully your statements have a lot of "Whats and ifs" as well. We have to use what and if as this is a hypothetical discussion. There are not enough details of this situation do do anything else but make it hypothetical, and should base the conversation accordingly. One would assume that he has been getting advise. Chris is aware of him so he must be in a club or class. In that environment we all know that a person gets advise of one form or another regardless whether they want it or not
That is the reason for the most part a person seeks out this type of venue. I think based on Chris's opening statement that no, he's not listening. Which is fine! Sometimes you have to venture off on your own and try a new approach i.e... tree upgrade. Is this guy/girls best interest at stake here with that advise or do people just lust after that piece of material
We will never know.
There seems to be an underlying thread of elitism in this entire concept where some seem to think it is their lot in life to tell other bonsai growers what kind of material they should be using. Giving advise and passing judgements are two different things. It has now gone from one end of the spectrum where people are criticized for using material that is too young, too small, too skinny, and too cheap. We are told that if you want to get some where you should be using decent material, preferably purchased from a reputable source at as high a price as possible, but for God's sake never ever use nursery material and so on down the road, to the other end of the spectrum where finally and now we come to the grand finale of double mindedness: That material is too advanced for you.
I agree with you on your first two sentences. As far as the spectrum thing, at least in this circumstance, we don't know enough details. As far as people being criticized? I will go out on a limb and assume that I know where that came from. It is my own personal feeling that it wasn't so much as a criticism, more of a strong belief in what that person feels. I respect that as I respect your feelings on the issue. My personal stance is that material grown for bonsai is a quicker means to and end. By the nature of the beast it has to be, that is what it was grown for. I will never rule out other sources though. That would be like slapping common sense in the face. I have my fair share of nursery material. In fact on the way to go collecting today. Taylor and I are going to do a nursery crawl. Which I can assure you I will enjoy more than humping it up the mountain tools in hand to a meadow that I want to collect in. The "grand finale" say it ain't so. Once again not enough details to know the true intention of that statement.
What would be good material for this individual?
Anything that floats his boat and inspires him.
Another thing that bothers me is this concept of 30 years as a beginner that seems to be a favorite mantra of a few who post around here. If you read the early part of this post you will see that mention is made of years of experience summed up as--- many years as a beginner for this person, who has obtained this wonderful tree. I am beginning to think that there are very specific things that must take place before you are allowed into the "No longer a beginner" club that have nothing to do with years of experience.
I personally think that if you can't display certain skills or techniques no matter what length of tenure you have in bonsai. You will have the stigma of being a beginner. I think you could be politically correct and say that the person is an advanced beginner or a beginner with a lot of years under his belt. We are all tested in one thing or another in life. Being humans we label and categorize in order to make sense of things. If a person can't or doesn't have the knowledge to demonstrate basic skills required to advance a tree (no matter what its origin or cost). They will always be doomed with that label from their peers. I cite a recent example on one of the other forums. A person I know with a fair amount of years under his belt asked if he could do a shari on a tree and remove "all" the bark. I ask you, is that a question that anything else but a beginner would ask. Wonder where this person was in biology class
Will this person ever be ready to take on advanced material? Well I don't know and I seriously doubt that many of us know either but there is one thing for sure he will never be ready if he does not acquire some advanced material or develop what he has into advanced material, which is by the way another concept poo-pooed as a waste of time by the pre-bonsai police.
To your first sentence....we will find out if we ever get a chance to see the finished product or trees from his past experience. As to the rest of the paragraph. I don't get it, knowing your feelings on nursery and "developed material".
I know that this is not the intention but it is the outcome none-the-less, we criticize those who are not advancing for using less than optimum material by beating them down for doing so. But when one of them goes out and buys some good material we beat them down again because in our convoluted logic we don't think this person is worthy of such a wonderful tree. The end result is the beginner will remain a beginner not because he does not try but because some of us wont allow him to progress. No matter what choice he makes it will be wrong in some eyes, with the right credentials, and this too is wrong, and slightly immoral.
You are partially right from my point of view. Once again we don't know enough in this one particular situation. I think you would agree that a person needs to should be able to demonstrate to himself and to a lesser degree others that he can take a tree from point A to point B in a reasonably logical way. If he can't then he will suffer the slings and arrows of his peers, for whatever there reason. It will happen here on the boards and in real life. Unfortunately this mentality is perpetuated by people wanting to make a buck. I was at the National Arboretum a few years back at an auction. I witnessed this guy bidding huge amounts of money on trees, were talking about thousands here. While at the same time he was asking people how to care for them. All the while his well known master/teacher was egging him on. Would I consider him a beginner? Yes! Did he have years under his belt? He claimed to, as did his teacher. Why do I consider him a beginner? Yes, if for nothing else, he was at the genesis of learning about a variety of trees that he was buying with reckless abandon. Did the group at the auction think the same? Yes, and they told him so all 100 or so of them. Did the staff at the bonsai museum say so. Yes, to the point of blocking one of his bids on a very old and valuable wisteria. Was his teacher responsible,.....ABSOLUTLY.....he/she obviously had other agendas than the well fair of the tree or advancing the students knowledge.