Design: The Divine Proportion and natural sequences

[Smoke]

I think you may be over thinking it, Smoke. I think the point is that this may be something that we can think about when making decisions. Do I cut branch A or B? Well, A is about 1/3 up the trunk while B is just 1/4, for an over simplified example. Or we could look at the way a branch is ramifying and consider how the ratio might help make a better looking pad.

However, I'm still looking for just one photo of a tree on which the artist may have done so.

What if branch "a" is half as large as the trunk, but branch "b" is the correct size, but does not fit the ratio. What is your answer? Do you keep the overly large branch for ratio's sake or use the more proportionate branch or is grafting the answer?

My point is we can draw pictures till the cows come home but no one is showing how this can be applied to the designing of trees in a rational and horticultural manner. Edumacate me!

 

[qwade]

My point which seems to be very small is that I can't for the life of me list anyone who is doing bonsai by taking a piece of rough stock, putting tape markers on the tree and then start working the tree trying like hell to make it conform to some ratio in the pursuit of an artistic bonsai. Am I over thinking this or what?

Probably won't find one for the list smoke., however I think it would be fun to try it. In fact since this discussion began I have taken a tape measure to my trees. But I am a numbers guy. And I also wing it. Although I would normally use my observations of nature in help styling I find this ratio very intriguing and going forward will experiment with it. You obviously could care less about it. And thats alright. Its something like a left brain right brain thing. I

The only thing I don't understand Smoke is why you continue to mockingly discuss something you don't believe in. Bonsai for me has always been about harmony.I do it to relax after a hard days work. You on the other hand seem to want to cause discord, at least in this thread. I am pretty new to these boards but did not expect it on a bonsai forum. Please enlighten me!

 

[Bonsai Nut]

What if branch "a" is half as large as the trunk, but branch "b" is the correct size, but does not fit the ratio. What is your answer?

Al being aware of design guidelines does not make you a slave to them. If you are a neophyte and simply don't know where to start, a guideline may help you start thinking about your tree in a certain way. If you are looking at an empty tokonama, design guidelines will help you start arranging and balancing elements. If you are torn between two equal paths, a design guideline may help you decide which to follow.

In your example, you are trying to decide between two bad paths. A bad branch in the right spot, or a good branch in the wrong spot. In my case, I try to fix the bad branch in the right spot. Or perhaps the solution is to change the height of the tree - and voila - suddenly the good branch is in the right spot. Design guidelines help you weigh and balance options. They are not "laws".

This thread was about a subtle symmetry in nature that can help a design feel "right" or "natural" or "beautiful". The purpose was not to say "I can prove how every bonsai that has ever won a competition follows this law". However I try to use the rhythms of nature to my advantage.

Give me time to create some examples - it may take a couple days. I am not trying to create spirals, but to create a series of a versus b examples. Here is a bonsai. Here is a stand. Here are two possible spots to place the bonsai on the stand. Which one "works"?

 

[edprocoat]

Al being aware of design guidelines does not make you a slave to them. If you are a neophyte and simply don't know where to start, a guideline may help you start thinking about your tree in a certain way. If you are looking at an empty tokonama, design guidelines will help you start arranging and balancing elements. If you are torn between two equal paths, a design guideline may help you decide which to follow.

In your example, you are trying to decide between two bad paths. A bad branch in the right spot, or a good branch in the wrong spot. In my case, I try to fix the bad branch in the right spot. Or perhaps the solution is to change the height of the tree - and voila - suddenly the good branch is in the right spot. Design guidelines help you weigh and balance options. They are not "laws".

This thread was about a subtle symmetry in nature that can help a design feel "right" or "natural" or "beautiful". The purpose was not to say "I can prove how every bonsai that has ever won a competition follows this law". However I try to use the rhythms of nature to my advantage.

Give me time to create some examples - it may take a couple days. I am not trying to create spirals, but to create a series of a versus b examples. Here is a bonsai. Here is a stand. Here are two possible spots to place the bonsai on the stand. Which one "works"?

Seems like you are talking about eyeballing the tree and stand and employing personal preference in the bolded example above, not some mathematical formulae ?

ed

 

[wireme]

Just thinking of a way for it to be practical to design by the ratio if desired. Say a tree with branches in the wrong spots, is it so necessary to be concerned with exactly where the branch emanates from the trunk? How about instead looking at where the most visual weight of the branch is? Conifer pads etc?

 

[coh]

Probably won't find one for the list smoke., however I think it would be fun to try it. In fact since this discussion began I have taken a tape measure to my trees. But I am a numbers guy. And I also wing it. Although I would normally use my observations of nature in help styling I find this ratio very intriguing and going forward will experiment with it. You obviously could care less about it. And thats alright. Its something like a left brain right brain thing. I

The only thing I don't understand Smoke is why you continue to mockingly discuss something you don't believe in. Bonsai for me has always been about harmony.I do it to relax after a hard days work. You on the other hand seem to want to cause discord, at least in this thread. I am pretty new to these boards but did not expect it on a bonsai forum. Please enlighten me!

Welcome to the forum...

I think Al does have some valid points. It is easy after the fact to draw a bunch of lines and claim they represent a golden spiral or fibonacci sequence. If you've ever taken an art history class, you've probably seen some of the analyses that have been done of old master paintings. They draw a whole bunch of intersecting lines that supposedly represent some kind of golden mean geometry. See for example, http://www.francois-murez.com/composition en.htm I'm not saying it's total bunk, but if you draw enough lines you're bound to have some that intersect key parts of the painting.

So the tougher problem is how do you apply this stuff going forward, in the design phase. The most obvious and well known approach is the branches at 1/3 intervals going up the trunk. But what about when you have a complicated yamadori or a tall, elegant literati? Can one use these ideas to design from something complicated? Probably, but just how does one do it.

I think an interesting approach might be for people to post some examples of untrained or rough stock and have those who are well versed in this stuff make design suggestions. Would anyone be interested in that?

 

[Smoke]

Al being aware of design guidelines does not make you a slave to them. If you are a neophyte and simply don't know where to start, a guideline may help you start thinking about your tree in a certain way. If you are looking at an empty tokonama, design guidelines will help you start arranging and balancing elements. If you are torn between two equal paths, a design guideline may help you decide which to follow.

In your example, you are trying to decide between two bad paths. A bad branch in the right spot, or a good branch in the wrong spot. In my case, I try to fix the bad branch in the right spot. Or perhaps the solution is to change the height of the tree - and voila - suddenly the good branch is in the right spot. Design guidelines help you weigh and balance options. They are not "laws".

This thread was about a subtle symmetry in nature that can help a design feel "right" or "natural" or "beautiful". The purpose was not to say "I can prove how every bonsai that has ever won a competition follows this law". However I try to use the rhythms of nature to my advantage.

Give me time to create some examples - it may take a couple days. I am not trying to create spirals, but to create a series of a versus b examples. Here is a bonsai. Here is a stand. Here are two possible spots to place the bonsai on the stand. Which one "works"?

Now it makes sense....this is a discussion about reinventing the wheel... I get it..carry on..

 

[Vance Wood]

Seems like you are talking about eyeballing the tree and stand and employing personal preference in the bolded example above, not some mathematical formulae ?

ed

Stumbling into the truth: If you in eyeballing your designs and understanding that the Golden Mean etc. is the internal goal of the creative force; lacking a more appropriate term,--- will not the result be more or less conformed to the patterns we have been discussing? If not the tree we are designing will look like crap and we will not know why. We can consciously design our trees by the dreaded rules of first branch, second branch, back branch etc, and come up with a tree that follows these so called rules, or we can, as mentioned earlier, design a tree by the seat of our pants and trust in the golden mean to reveal itself as we search for the art within as we place braches. Just a thought. One method is a paint by the numbers the other is building on what moves the soul. One is copying a set of patterns the other is functioning within a pattern.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

design a tree by the seat of our pants and trust in the golden mean to reveal itself as we search for the art within as we place braches.

Exactly. And my question to you Vance, is how do you know how to design by the seat of your pants? Is it because you design by what you see in nature? And what do you see in nature? Is it natural sequences?

I think this is another case where people can either accept the value in design theory - or reject it. But to say "I don't get it - therefore NO ONE should get it" is silly.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Seems like you are talking about eyeballing the tree and stand and employing personal preference in the bolded example above, not some mathematical formulae ?

ed

Not at all. I will show numerous examples of design balance where I will give people a choice. One case will fit a natural sequence (numerically). One case will not. You choose which "feels" best.

I will try to find good examples and bad examples in classic bonsai, so that when I edit the image I will be balancing some, and unbalancing others.

 

[tinajasaltas]

It comes down to just a different way of looking at the same thing. No need to call anybody out on it. I think studying the sequence and understanding helps when learning to mimic natural form in art because natural forms do express this sequence. When a great painter paints a figure of the human body they are not necessarily starting with the sequence, they might be talented so to have a great intuition on the proportions of painting an accurate human figure. This does not change that understanding and mastering the sequence proportions as expressed on the human figure can be good practice to foster a better intuition for a beginner when painting one. I think in general the same can be said for practicing the art of bonsai. Using the sequence’s general shapes and ratios to understand…why one branch looks out of place of not? What area should be developed? Where is the tree out of balance? Using the sequence as a tool is probably much better value for a beginner. Hopefully one way or another good intuition probably develops in the artist about natural ratios, shapes, and sizes…

In general can one not better understand visual placement in bonsai by trying to fit the natural sequence somewhere?

 

[Bunjeh]

Natural example

The Nautilus shell.

 

[Bunjeh]

. No need to call anybody out on it. I think studying the sequence and understanding helps when learning to mimic natural form in art because natural forms do express this sequence. When a great painter paints a figure of the human body they are not necessarily starting with the sequence, they might be talented so to have a great intuition on the proportions of painting an accurate human figure.

I failed algebra in college because I simply wrote down the answer but did not show my work. Fact is I could not show the work because to me it was intuitive. Some people must measure to insure that they have achieved the optimal proportion. Others can simply slash a line and achieve the same result. One person is about process. One person is about product. Neither is better than the other.

Everyone arguing here needs to assume their adversary's perspective.

 

[sorce]

As I said previously. Designing by this rule directly is only applicable if grafting.
One can move branches already there to some degree, and this will help.

It is mostly found afterward though.

Blake spiraled those trees and Damn if it doesn't fit right perfect .

Of course it does, these are good finished trees.

I googled shitty bonsai, and I don't think you can spiral these.

Blake since you get it, care to give it a shot?

Smoke, read Bunjeh's algebra post. You are the same kind of person, product not process, this is a subject for the design challenged, for folks with shitty trees and a big WTF looming over them.

This is 2%. An aha moment for a couple people. Lets not clutter this with irrelevant garbage, let's leave i t clear for those few folks.

Sorce

 

[davetree]

The Nautilus shell.

Nautilus shell, the human body, the chameleon's tail - not the divine proportion. Look it up, but make sure your source is a real mathematician.

 

[davetree]

Look at Da Vinci's drawing of "the proportions of man". If you look carefully you will notice the human body he drew had to have the arms unnaturally lengthened and the neck shortened for it to fit the circle. Also the proprtion of the height of the navel to the height of the body varies considerably in real humans.

 

[Anthony]

What is notiiceable on Old Master work, is that it looks - Believeable.

Try to do it in reality / nature and it does not work.

The power of Pattern and Design, amplified with ColourTone, and a given amount of unconsciously applied Geometry, plus Mega Subject themes.

Creating an effort with a found tree [ yamadori, nursery, backyard etc.] means harmonising with what is already there, and perhaps not really changeable. So as Brother-in-law says - Apply a Green Hat.

If you grow enough seedlings of one type of tree, the information gained allows great manipulation of branch placements, root flare and so on. BUT YOU HAVE TO DO THIS TO UNDERSTAND IT - Experience.

Most just buy shapes and then make Pseudo - Japanese efforts.
It looks awkward simply because they are not living in Japan.
The Chinese when entering Trinidad, told their Trinidadian born children, that they were not Chinese.

What seems to happening here is the elders, having to realise that Bonsai is truly becoming an Art Form.

So they talk it, but the youngers want to do it.

Heads bumping, - Why was it so difficult in the beginning - as written by Vance to Bonsai Chick [Steph ]
All that energy gone just to get basic knowledge, now the easy access to the young and loss of respect for the older heads.

Nature of Art, Realism over Naturalism over Mannerism over and over and over.

You are moving out of a period of Mannerism, into Naturalism/Realism.
When you master it, it will be so new/fresh and alive that the Japanese youth will once again want to do Bonsai.

Try to bridge the worlds, with experience.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Vance Wood]

I failed algebra in college because I simply wrote down the answer but did not show my work. Fact is I could not show the work because to me it was intuitive. Some people must measure to insure that they have achieved the optimal proportion. Others can simply slash a line and achieve the same result. One person is about process. One person is about product. Neither is better than the other.

Everyone arguing here needs to assume their adversary's perspective.

That is always the problem with discussions like this one. At some point the adversarial relationships seem to raise their heads and take over the discussion.

 

[tmpgh]

I think the issue is greater than just experience vs. inexperience.

For me, the problem was/is that the abstract ideas of srt and nature presented in the first post were not being made concrete as relates to bonsai. I think that is still something of an issue. When an idea is presented as an abstraction, one can only hope for heated debate. A more concrete discussion can lead to a different sort of discourse.

There are also people who work hard to argue with everyone and everything, including people who try to agree with them.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I think the issue is greater than just experience vs. inexperience.

For me, the problem was/is that the abstract ideas of srt and nature presented in the first post were not being made concrete as relates to bonsai. I think that is still something of an issue. When an idea is presented as an abstraction, one can only hope for heated debate. A more concrete discussion can lead to a different sort of discourse.

There are also people who work hard to argue with everyone and everything, including people who try to agree with them.

If I sound frustrated, it is because I am failing to communicate. The frustration comes from within, and is not directed at any one person.