Developing pine, did I make a mistake?

[Ninecloud]

Might have made a mistake. I cut first year new growth off on bottoms to focus energy to sacrificial. Was that the wrong idea? Then read an article by Jonas, saying let em grow out for 9 years? Or am I reading wrong?.. sorry, getting some info mixed up, and can't find my way back. Any help would be appreciated

 

[TrevorLarsen]

What kind of pine is it? I’m no expert but if you only have growth on the sacrificial branch the when you sacrifice it you will have no tree. IMO you want to keep the tree in balance not focus energy more on the sacrificial branch.

 

[Ninecloud]

They are JBP, thats kinnda what I thought too

 

[Japonicus]

Best to leave the apex as sacrifice untouched, while developing the tree below it.

Pine Pruning Plan

I recently acquired this pine and I'm trying to figure out best plan here for long term styling. I have ideas, but my ideas and what might be best could be two different things. So to start, my long term goal would be to increase the trunk size to at least 3". It's about 2" right now. I'm...

www.bonsainut.com

see post #3 by Adair M and search decandling black pine or JBP

 

[Ninecloud]

Best to leave the apex as sacrifice untouched, while developing the tree below it.

Pine Pruning Plan

I recently acquired this pine and I'm trying to figure out best plan here for long term styling. I have ideas, but my ideas and what might be best could be two different things. So to start, my long term goal would be to increase the trunk size to at least 3". It's about 2" right now. I'm...

www.bonsainut.com

see post #3 by Adair M and search decandling black pine or JBP

yo, thank you for this. only telperion stuff ive been seeing is top down repotting, etc and the great work John Eads been doing. Did not even think to look here to see if they had Dev material. This is awesome.

 

[Tele]

He describes that the lower branches are kept. I have seen it done in videos (thickening by height) and they did not keep lower branches.
The trees started making these lower branches after 6/7 years. It was about redpines, can´t find it...

 

[Japonicus]

I would not advise to cut off any lower branches except to reduce whorls
or anything too low for bonsai use…in the Fall or late Winter.

 

[Ninecloud]

Best to leave the apex as sacrifice untouched, while developing the tree below it.

Pine Pruning Plan

I recently acquired this pine and I'm trying to figure out best plan here for long term styling. I have ideas, but my ideas and what might be best could be two different things. So to start, my long term goal would be to increase the trunk size to at least 3". It's about 2" right now. I'm...

www.bonsainut.com

see post #3 by Adair M and search decandling black pine or JBP

I see Onuma san was mentioned. Ive been following a lot of Japanese artists, and he seems to be pruning back 1st flush of growth from his videos as well as other folks like Kitadani Yoseien

I realize now im doing what they do way too soon. I still have the lower branches, i just cut back their first growth, and what I should have done is let them establish more. Hopefully it doesn;t set me back too much. Shoulda studied more, tried to cover as much Jonas material as I could, and thats how i found I did it too early.

 

[SeanS]

Those remaining branches (which you cut the candles off of) look like juvenile pine growth, many of them have single needs instead of needle pairs. It also seems very early in the season to be decandling, it’s only just the end of May.

 

[Ninecloud]

Those remaining branches (which you cut the candles off of) look like juvenile pine growth, many of them have single needs instead of needle pairs. It also seems very early in the season to be decandling, it’s only just the end of May.

in your experience with juvenile foliage, do they keep growing, die off, or struggle to get hormones back?

 

[MaciekA]

FWIW, I mentor under John Eads and work on lots of pines with him. Note that material prep techniques for black pine shouldn't be mistaken for bonsai development of a black pine. There is lots of rule-breaking madness in the first 5 years. Cutting shoots back to almost nothing, bare rooting, decandling-for-prep many years prior to typical guidance, etc etc. Eric Schrader has a nice YT video "decandling 49 pines" that can give you an idea of the wild west of this stage of pine development. During the first couple material prep years, "just let it grow" isn't always the right guidance when aiming for shohin or mame, even if you're gonna grow a thick trunk for years.

Anyway, if you are intending to grow small trees (i.e. shohin) then it's fine to shorten (pinch) the non-leader shoots, but I would have pinched much earlier than this -- pinching conifer shoots after water has started to really move and prior to lignification or hardening of the whole shoot may not be as reliable. And if you're intending to decandle, then you'd fully cut down all the new shoots that aren't your leader, and needle pluck to control the replacement growth. Again, this is assuming you are going into long periods of trunk growing and want to keep basal shoots minimally-alive and held back. There are a few ways to go about the prep phase.

Note that the cutting shown in the photos is not decandling, it's shortening the shoot or perhaps best-described as a "very late pinching". I don't have experience with very late pinching because I've only been taught to be hands off (aside from decandling) in the post-needle-push, pre-hardening/lignification phase. Maybe it'll be fine, maybe not. But if you rewind the clock to a month or two ago, you would have a few options to consider:

- Pinch much earlier than this, just around the initial needle emergence / "fresh asparagus" phase
- Decandle entirely down to the base of the candle, with the timing somewhere between now all the way into June and perhaps even July depending on climate and latitude. ( @SeanS , you should know that in North America this isn't an unusual time to decandle, especially the farther north you go on the continent. I can't speak for Virginia but in Oregon decandling kickoff starts now. I will be decandling at Andrew Robson's garden on Sunday and then be decandling for the couple weeks thereafter in my own garden).
- Shorten shoots like these after they'd hardened and lignified. You could also shorten them a year later too. Really as long as you still have needles to cut back to, they're on lignified wood and you have vigor raging somewhere else in the tree, you'd be good to shorten.

Definitely check out that "49 pines" video I mentioned.

 

[Ninecloud]

thank you so much for all this my dood.

FWIW, I mentor under John Eads and work on lots of pines with him. Note that material prep techniques for black pine shouldn't be mistaken for bonsai development of a black pine. There is lots of rule-breaking madness in the first 5 years. Cutting shoots back to almost nothing, bare rooting, decandling-for-prep many years prior to typical guidance, etc etc. Eric Schrader has a nice YT video "decandling 49 pines" that can give you an idea of the wild west of this stage of pine development. During the first couple material prep years, "just let it grow" isn't always the right guidance when aiming for shohin or mame, even if you're gonna grow a thick trunk for years.

Anyway, if you are intending to grow small trees (i.e. shohin) then it's fine to shorten (pinch) the non-leader shoots, but I would have pinched much earlier than this -- pinching conifer shoots after water has started to really move and prior to lignification or hardening of the whole shoot may not be as reliable. And if you're intending to decandle, then you'd fully cut down all the new shoots that aren't your leader, and needle pluck to control the replacement growth. Again, this is assuming you are going into long periods of trunk growing and want to keep basal shoots minimally-alive and held back. There are a few ways to go about the prep phase.

Note that the cutting shown in the photos is not decandling, it's shortening the shoot or perhaps best-described as a "very late pinching". I don't have experience with very late pinching because I've only been taught to be hands off (aside from decandling) in the post-needle-push, pre-hardening/lignification phase. Maybe it'll be fine, maybe not. But if you rewind the clock to a month or two ago, you would have a few options to consider:

- Pinch much earlier than this, just around the initial needle emergence / "fresh asparagus" phase
- Decandle entirely down to the base of the candle, with the timing somewhere between now all the way into June and perhaps even July depending on climate and latitude. ( @SeanS , you should know that in North America this isn't an unusual time to decandle, especially the farther north you go on the continent. I can't speak for Virginia but in Oregon decandling kickoff starts now. I will be decandling at Andrew Robson's garden on Sunday and then be decandling for the couple weeks thereafter in my own garden).
- Shorten shoots like these after they'd hardened and lignified. You could also shorten them a year later too. Really as long as you still have needles to cut back to, they're on lignified wood and you have vigor raging somewhere else in the tree, you'd be good to shorten.

Definitely check out that "49 pines" video I mentioned.

Thank you so much for this. Being that these are from John Eads, and he did say to keep him updated, i would hate to let him down. Thank you so much for the explanation, and detail. I have no formal training with JBP, and have been learning from some of the folks you mentioned, along with Japanese videos and literature. You're absolutely right about the material and guidance when it comes to the first 5 years. I will try to have less hands on em. It turns out i did go through that Bonsaify video prior to working with JBP, but i will def give it another go with fresh ears and eyes - numbers def help suit the scenarios better. taking it all in for everyone, thanks everyone for all the feedback so far, its been a tremendous help and education. I started a deciduous dood, so Robson is one of my favorites as well, so cool you're working with a lot of folks I admire, enjoy!

 

[Paradox]

FWIW, I mentor under John Eads and work on lots of pines with him. Note that material prep techniques for black pine shouldn't be mistaken for bonsai development of a black pine. There is lots of rule-breaking madness in the first 5 years. Cutting shoots back to almost nothing, bare rooting, decandling-for-prep many years prior to typical guidance, etc etc. Eric Schrader has a nice YT video "decandling 49 pines" that can give you an idea of the wild west of this stage of pine development. During the first couple material prep years, "just let it grow" isn't always the right guidance when aiming for shohin or mame, even if you're gonna grow a thick trunk for years.

Anyway, if you are intending to grow small trees (i.e. shohin) then it's fine to shorten (pinch) the non-leader shoots, but I would have pinched much earlier than this -- pinching conifer shoots after water has started to really move and prior to lignification or hardening of the whole shoot may not be as reliable. And if you're intending to decandle, then you'd fully cut down all the new shoots that aren't your leader, and needle pluck to control the replacement growth. Again, this is assuming you are going into long periods of trunk growing and want to keep basal shoots minimally-alive and held back. There are a few ways to go about the prep phase.

Note that the cutting shown in the photos is not decandling, it's shortening the shoot or perhaps best-described as a "very late pinching". I don't have experience with very late pinching because I've only been taught to be hands off (aside from decandling) in the post-needle-push, pre-hardening/lignification phase. Maybe it'll be fine, maybe not. But if you rewind the clock to a month or two ago, you would have a few options to consider:

- Pinch much earlier than this, just around the initial needle emergence / "fresh asparagus" phase
- Decandle entirely down to the base of the candle, with the timing somewhere between now all the way into June and perhaps even July depending on climate and latitude. ( @SeanS , you should know that in North America this isn't an unusual time to decandle, especially the farther north you go on the continent. I can't speak for Virginia but in Oregon decandling kickoff starts now. I will be decandling at Andrew Robson's garden on Sunday and then be decandling for the couple weeks thereafter in my own garden).
- Shorten shoots like these after they'd hardened and lignified. You could also shorten them a year later too. Really as long as you still have needles to cut back to, they're on lignified wood and you have vigor raging somewhere else in the tree, you'd be good to shorten.

Definitely check out that "49 pines" video I mentioned.

Why would you pinch the spring growth on a JBP in early spring when you are just going to cut it off a month and a half later?
Isn't it the point to let that growth go to help fuel the new buds after candle cutting? My JPB are a bit bigger than shohin but I've never pinched the candles on them before cutting

I've gone through and pinched my mugos and scotts pines but they are single flush and treated much differently

 

[MaciekA]

Why would you pinch the spring growth on a JBP in early spring when you are just going to cut it off a month and a half later?
Isn't it the point to let that growth go to help fuel the new buds after candle cutting? My JPB are a bit bigger than shohin but I've never pinched the candles on them before cutting

I've gone through and pinched my mugos and scotts pines but they are single flush and treated much differently

The list was possible options to choose from as opposed to sequential steps.