Does akadama really break down?

[Beng]

Don't usually get involved in the soil debate but I thought i'd share my thoughts and experience on this.

Does akadama break down? Of course it does over time, but the way it breaks down doesn't form a mass that is in any way a bad place for roots to reside. Pure akadama will break down into a mass of pure akadama, mixed with some fertilizer and other nutrients.

I think that those who complain about akadama breaking down haven't been taught how to properly pot with it. Akadama must be sifted, mixed, and chopsticked completely dry or it will fall apart. Once it absorbs moisture its twice as easy to crush. The japanese have been using it for hundreds of years without problems, why do we suddenly have a problem? We have a problem cause many of us have been taught the wrong ways to use it. Soaking root balls before hand, or soaking the mix before hand, or spraying the mix before hand. All of these are wrong. Trees should be repotted into DRY soil, and they shouldn't be repotted until their old soil is almost dry. Akadama is an excellent component in fact combined with pumice you can get rapid healthy growth. Used by itself you can sustain an old tree potentially forever. Do a test yourself crush a piece of high fired akadama between your fingers, then soak the same piece and try again. Try chopsticking a cup of dry akadama and see if it falls apart. Try chopsticking a cup of dry akadama and dry pumice. Then try chopsticking the same cup with half akadama and half lava and let me know your results for the amount of tan fines created below. Then put the tree components akadama with any of the other two wet and post your results below once the dust settles and it dries.

I think you will find like I have that dry akadama is a great component on it's own and combined with pumice dry. But that by wetting it and then chopsticking it we drastically decrease the mediums ability to hold its shape and turn it into a lower quality mush.

Japan has several areas that exp. the same freezes as the majority of our east coast. Granted I don't think they have any areas as cold as Northern North Dakota.

Ben

 

[Dan W.]

Amen Brother!

At Michael Hagedorn's, the only trees we washed roots on were very young/early training stage trees. The mature/established trees we didn't even come close to touching the inner root ball during repotting. Bjorn's new video is a perfect example. With pumice or lava mixed with akadama they don't change anything but the edges, a bit underneath, and sometimes a layer on top. The akadama does break down, but it still drains well and creates a very good environment for long term, SLOW, root growth. Which is exactly what's needed for established bonsai.

 

[Beng]

Dan we repotted one of your collected trees at the seasonal I was at up there this spring. Was trying to find your email to send you pics a few days back but couldn't locate it. Here's a small screenshot. Looks great in the new pot, will look even more amazing once it's been refined further.

 

[Dan W.]

Great! Thanks! I was hoping to see that soon. You can send more pics here if you have them: backcountrybonsai@gmail.com

 

[Dan W.]

Here's a link to the new Bonsai Art of Japan episode 40: http://youtu.be/zRKyBpYnmfA

Note the soil they are using... looks like nothing but akadama and pumice. And note that the inner root pad is broken down into a cake. It's the same mix of pumice and akadama. Oh... and note that it's being applied and chop sticked in dry, as Ben mentioned.

Happy soil wars everyone!

 

[papymandarin]

as you said freeze in itself is not the problem with akadama, nor how it's used at repotting, we use it dry too here to repot.
so why do we here often use something else while indeed it works in japan even where it freezes regulary?, not just to contradict japanese. Because here in western/northern european countries (can't speak for US as i don't know climates there) we 'enjoy' VERY wet winters, while in japan winter is the dry season. Here it rains a LOT in winter AND it freezes regularly and strongly, this combination of soils permanenty wet (i usually don't have to water from the end of september untill march) + frost will turn your akadama into sticky mud in a matter of weeks.
People here overwintering their trees in greenhouses or at least protected from winter rains are able to use akadama without any problem.

 

[Eric Group]

I have seen the issue of it breaking down over time due to really cold temperatures being mentioned as a problem more than it breaking down when people are potting with it...

More so though, I think price and availability are the biggest issues for most people who don't use it.

I'd love to get my hands on some, I bet it would work fine in my environment, but after shipping and everything, it is about $50 a bag at most the places I checked and that is for just a couple gallons! I can get premixed soil for closer to $40 with Akadama, pumice and lava I think... But that sure is a lot of money to spend on "dirt"!! If I only had like three trees, might be worth it... Are the benefits of that soil ingredient worth paying 10-20 times what I pay for bonsai soil with the ingredients I use now? I guess until I get some I will never really know.

 

[coh]

I have seen the issue of it breaking down over time due to really cold temperatures being mentioned as a problem more than it breaking down when people are potting with it...

More so though, I think price and availability are the biggest issues for most people who don't use it.

I'd love to get my hands on some, I bet it would work fine in my environment, but after shipping and everything, it is about $50 a bag at most the places I checked and that is for just a couple gallons! I can get premixed soil for closer to $40 with Akadama, pumice and lava I think... But that sure is a lot of money to spend on "dirt"!! If I only had like three trees, might be worth it... Are the benefits of that soil ingredient worth paying 10-20 times what I pay for bonsai soil with the ingredients I use now? I guess until I get some I will never really know.

Here's the misguided way I look at it - are you satisfied with the health and growth of your trees now? How do they compare to others in your area, your local club (if you're a member)? If you're not satisfied, check to see what others are using. If they're using an akadama-based mix, just bite the bullet, get a bag, and try it for yourself.

I remember having this discussion on IBC a couple of years ago and someone raised the point that even at $50 (or whatever) a bag for akadama, it's still not that expensive to repot a tree...especially compared to the cost of a nice tree/pot (and since you usually don't have to repot every year).

Chris

 

[Poink88]

More so though, I think price and availability are the biggest issues for most people who don't use it.

I'd love to get my hands on some, I bet it would work fine in my environment, but after shipping and everything, it is about $50 a bag at most the places I checked and that is for just a couple gallons! I can get premixed soil for closer to $40 with Akadama, pumice and lava I think... But that sure is a lot of money to spend on "dirt"!! If I only had like three trees, might be worth it... Are the benefits of that soil ingredient worth paying 10-20 times what I pay for bonsai soil with the ingredients I use now? I guess until I get some I will never really know.

Here's the misguided way I look at it - are you satisfied with the health and growth of your trees now? How do they compare to others in your area, your local club (if you're a member)? If you're not satisfied, check to see what others are using. If they're using an akadama-based mix, just bite the bullet, get a bag, and try it for yourself.

I remember having this discussion on IBC a couple of years ago and someone raised the point that even at $50 (or whatever) a bag for akadama, it's still not that expensive to repot a tree...especially compared to the cost of a nice tree/pot (and since you usually don't have to repot every year).

Chris

Chris, from the other soil thread's response to same comment by Eric. LOL.

I agree. Budget is the real issue here.

I have about 180 plants in training now...most are big and need 10 quarts of soil each (some twice as much). There is no way I can afford premium substrate for all of them. I also do not think they are worth the premium soil right now...especially since they are growing as good as any I've seen posted here anyways.

 

[coh]

Tough to keep all these conversations straight! Especially when the original topic (mixes for growing out larger stock) gets amalgamated with the age old akadama debate. Obviously my comment about it "not being that expensive to repot a tree" pertains to trees that are in relatively small bonsai pots. If all someone has is larger nursery-type stock, then I go with the amended nursery-type soil mix and don't even think about akadama.

Chris

 

[wireme]

I wonder how the mushy akadama syndrome relates to frequency of freeze and thaw compared to overall climate temps. Up here it gets plenty cold usually quickly and with good snow cover. My trees normally go through very few freeze thaw cycles. A good long freeze though.

Never used akadama but I hear people say terracotta pots fall apart after a year of freeze thaw outdoors, they tend to last outdoors about 5-10 yrs for me.

 

[Poink88]

I wonder how the mushy akadama syndrome relates to frequency of freeze and thaw compared to overall climate temps. Up here it gets plenty cold usually quickly and with good snow cover. My trees normally go through very few freeze thaw cycles. A good long freeze though.

Never used akadama but I hear people say terracotta pots fall apart after a year of freeze thaw outdoors, they tend to last outdoors about 5-10 yrs for me.

Interesting. We rarely see snow here but I've had terracotta pot break down on me in less than 3 years. Maybe because it is out in the open all the time and the few short below freezing we have hit them hard?

And here I am thinking I can safely use akadama if need be (being in south)....maybe not? I would love to hear what others have to share about this.

Thanks!

 

[Dav4]

I wonder how the mushy akadama syndrome relates to frequency of freeze and thaw compared to overall climate temps. Up here it gets plenty cold usually quickly and with good snow cover. My trees normally go through very few freeze thaw cycles. A good long freeze though.

Never used akadama but I hear people say terracotta pots fall apart after a year of freeze thaw outdoors, they tend to last outdoors about 5-10 yrs for me.

I was thinking the same thing. Down here in N. GA, my trees probably go through multiple freeze thaws a week, starting in December and going right through March. In MA, my trees would freeze solid, pots covered in mulch, by Xmas and stay that way until March/April. I don't use akadama so I can't comment on it's longevity in either local. Terra cotta fell apart quickly in both locals, as I recall.

 

[Fangorn]

In MA, my trees would freeze solid, pots covered in mulch, by Xmas and stay that way until March/April.

That's the way it is for me here in CT, I'm sure mine are still frozen under the mulch. Maybe because my soil doesn't go through a thaw/freeze cycle, I don't have much of a problem with the akadama breaking down to mush. Even after a few years I'll still have clearly defined akadama particles in my soil when re-potting.
Even if it did turn all to mush I think I'd be OK because I would still have my lava and pumice helping with the soil structure

yeah I'm one of those guys

 

[GrimLore]

Interesting. We rarely see snow here but I've had terracotta pot break down on me in less than 3 years. Maybe because it is out in the open all the time and the few short below freezing we have hit them hard?

And here I am thinking I can safely use akadama if need be (being in south)....maybe not? I would love to hear what others have to share about this.

Thanks!

Terracotta is fired at very low temps so it takes on water a LOT. Cannot use it up here even for trainers.

Grimmy

 

[Poink88]

Terracotta is fired at very low temps so it takes on water a LOT. Cannot use it up here even for trainers.

Grimmy

I know...just using that as a bench mark for Akadama. If terracotta break in freeze thaw here...then maybe Akadama will too.

 

[GrimLore]

I know...just using that as a bench mark for Akadama. If terracotta break in freeze thaw here...then maybe Akadama will too.

No consequence to me or you either way - Our specimens do fine without it so why even consider it?

Grimmy

 

[Poink88]

No consequence to me or you either way - Our specimens do fine without it so why even consider it?

Grimmy

I am always open to new things. There is a reason people are raving about it and I intend to know why. I am curious by nature.

 

[nathanbs]

No consequence to me or you either way - Our specimens do fine without it so why even consider it?

Grimmy

no offense but they are not "Specimens" yet. big difference between trees being trained for bonsai and trees that have reached that pinnacle of refinement and health. Each type can have very different needs soil wise

 

[GrimLore]

no offense but they are not "Specimens" yet. big difference between trees being trained for bonsai and trees that have reached that pinnacle of refinement and health. Each type can have very different needs soil wise

I don't use soil and Akadama is not soil either way. If what I use works for me I am content and feel no need to complicate things. I view this experience as "relaxing" and do everything I can to keep things simple so I can relax and enjoy rather then hurry and worry.

Grimmy