Dwarf Alberta Spruce “I can feel the hate inside you”.

[bonsaichile]

That’s right, but you don’t pinch unless you already have the back buds which it will stimulate. You can achieve that also with pruning post hardening, but the resulting growth may have longer internodes than you might like.

when do you

That’s right, but you don’t pinch unless you already have the back buds which it will stimulate. You can achieve that also with pruning post hardening, but the resulting growth may have longer internodes than you might like.

When do you pinch? My spruces dont get new buds until August, not now or in a month.

 

[PiñonJ]

that assumes you can keep the desired silhouette indefinitely, which is certainly not the case with most trees. Cutting back to a bud usually means cutting down to the bottom of this year's shoots, where new buds will set in August. Keeping the tree's foliage throught the season to maximize its photosynthetic period keeps a tree strong. Forcing it to spend resources in an artificial "second flush" weakens it. You can do it, but if you do it every year, your tree will slowly decline.

That’s why I said ‘currently desired silhouette.’ Sure, the tree will change over time, as will all trees. Again, it depends what you’re trying to accomplish at the moment. Pinching is for refinement. The way I pinch and the trees I choose pinch does not result in a compromised tree.

 

[PiñonJ]

when do you

When do you pinch? My spruces dont get new buds until August, not now or in a month.View attachment 300805

Pinching in spring stimulates weaker buds that are also opening, or that haven’t opened. The buds were set last year. The tree in your photo is still in development. I’ll post a photo of one later.

 

[bonsaichile]

Pinching in spring stimulates weaker buds that are also opening, or that haven’t opened. The buds were set last year. The tree in your photo is still in development. I’ll post a photo of one later.

Not in my experience. I always got a bunch if new buds at the wound, never further down the shoot. I would like to see a pic of the new buds you get after pinching.

 

[PiñonJ]

Not in my experience. I always got a bunch if new buds at the wound, never further down the shoot. I would like to see a pic of the new buds you get after pinching.

You misunderstand the technique. Pinching stimulates back buds that were set last year. It does not cause new buds to be set. That occurs through vascular traffic, by fertilizing the tree and getting it as vigorous as possible. Pinching has nothing to do with creating back buds. A branch that needs back buds is in development and is not a candidate for pinching.

 

[bonsaichile]

You misunderstand the technique. Pinching stimulates back buds that were set last year. It does not cause new buds to be set. That occurs through vascular traffic, by fertilizing the tree and getting it as vigorous as possible. Pinching has nothing to do with creating back buds. A branch that needs back buds is in development and is not a candidate for pinching.

In my experience, buds that were set the previous year will elongate this year, pinch them or not.

 

[sorce]

Unless......

Perhaps .....

The tree is already compromised.

Amen.

Pics!

I think refinement is a buzz word.

Growth is growth and ramification makes it smaller.

Sorce

 

[bonsaichile]

You misunderstand the technique. Pinching stimulates back buds that were set last year. It does not cause new buds to be set. That occurs through vascular traffic, by fertilizing the tree and getting it as vigorous as possible. Pinching has nothing to do with creating back buds. A branch that needs back buds is in development and is not a candidate for pinching.

All branches need backbudding. There is no other way to replace them as they grow too thick (and in time they will)

 

[Forsoothe!]

Yes, it is hard to see.

That demon rum must have distracted my attention to detail...

 

[PiñonJ]

All branches need backbudding. There is no other way to replace them as they grow too thick (and in time they will)

When I say ‘needs,’ I mean it doesn’t have them yet. I’ll post those photos shortly.

 

[Yosemite Goat]

It came through fine. A little later start than a few of my spruces, but here is the new growth pushing. The plan for now is to let the unmolested root system push the growth all summer. No pinching. Late summer-early fall reevaluate what the next step is. Since you now live in Bend, I’ll tell you that I bought this tree at Eastside Gardens. It was an end of season sale and the tree was way in the back lot. They had a number of big DAS pruned in that spiral topiary fashion.

View attachment 300583

That's funny, I worked at Eastside Gardens last summer. There is a double trunk in the ugly tree sale that has been there for 2 years, it is still there that I am tempted to purchase it for something to work on!

 

[PiñonJ]

Sorry, I’m having connection problems with the website and it won’t let me post photos (even though it uploads them). Will try again tomorrow.

 

[Forsoothe!]

Sorry, I’m having connection problems with the website and it won’t let me post photos (even though it uploads them). Will try again tomorrow.

Reformat to .jpg @96 x 96 pixels up to 186 x 186 pixels.

 

[PiñonJ]

Here's my P. engelmannii (possibly x pungens). I collected it three years ago, did the first styling a year ago, and re-potted it in a Dave Giorgi bonsai container this spring. The first three photos show the foliage density, the last four are branches whose terminal shoots I pinched about a week-and-a-half ago. I pinched some more of the strongest shoots after taking these photos. You're right that existing buds are likely to open anyway, but pinching re-distributes energy to weaker shoots and balances the growth. I don't pinch branches that already have balanced growth. The tree also self-pruned some buds that were opening during a hard freeze. In the fall, I'll do shoot selection, taking threes and fours down to twos.








Here’s the same branch as in the last



Sorry to hijack the thread, @Arcto !

 

[Djtommy]

All branches need backbudding. There is no other way to replace them as they grow too thick (and in time they will)

Pinching is just redirecting energy to a place you want it to go. If you have the buds where you want to cut back too, they also need to be strong enough. cutting back to a weak area is not very safe. how To make a weaker area stronger is by redirecting energy to the weaker area, for spruces, pinch the tips and the interior will grow more then without pinching, you offcourse need the interior(backbuds, interior branching) first or pinching will make the whole area weaker.
redirecting energy at the appropriate time is one of the most important aspects in bonsai.

 

[bonsaichile]

Pinching is just redirecting energy to a place you want it to go. If you have the buds where you want to cut back too, they also need to be strong enough. cutting back to a weak area is not very safe. how To make a weaker area stronger is by redirecting energy to the weaker area, for spruces, pinch the tips and the interior will grow more then without pinching, you offcourse need the interior(backbuds, interior branching) first or pinching will make the whole area weaker.
redirecting energy at the appropriate time is one of the most important aspects in bonsai.

this whole "redirecting energy" is at best a metaphore or at worse nonsense. What energy? Are you moving calories or kilojoules?

 

[bonsaichile]

Here's my P. engelmannii (possibly x pungens). I collected it three years ago, did the first styling a year ago, and re-potted it in a Dave Giorgi bonsai container this spring. The first three photos show the foliage density, the last four are branches whose terminal shoots I pinched about a week-and-a-half ago. I pinched some more of the strongest shoots after taking these photos. You're right that existing buds are likely to open anyway, but pinching re-distributes energy to weaker shoots and balances the growth. I don't pinch branches that already have balanced growth. The tree also self-pruned some buds that were opening during a hard freeze. In the fall, I'll do shoot selection, taking threes and fours down to twos.
View attachment 301185
View attachment 301186
View attachment 301187
View attachment 301181
View attachment 301183
Here’s the same branch as in the last
View attachment 301184
Sorry to hijack the thread, @Arcto !

So basically what you are doing are trying to control not the energy but the effects of auxin so you strenghten lower buds. Is that correct?

 

[PiñonJ]

this whole "redirecting energy" is at best a metaphore or at worse nonsense. What energy? Are you moving calories or kilojoules?

So basically what you are doing are trying to control not the energy but the effects of auxin so you strenghten lower buds. Is that correct?

Yes, and yes.
Yes, you are redirecting calories in the form of stored carbohydrates that are used to create new growth and yes you are affecting the distribution of those stored resources by decreasing auxin inhibition.

 

[Djtommy]

this whole "redirecting energy" is at best a metaphore or at worse nonsense. What energy? Are you moving calories or kilojoules?

Well, using the word energy, it makes things simplified and easy to understand at least for me. Metaphor perhaps, complete nonsense not at all. Or are you saying it doesn’t cost energy for a tree to produce leafs. You know it does, calling it energy in stead of carbohydrates isn’t exactly wrong in my eyes.

The whole how it works has come up many times by now, auxin and all that stuff. Keeping it simple doesn’t make it wrong.

But again, you only do it when you need to, I have some spruces where I left the tree 90% untouched and just pinched a few areas. Because it will give me a higher chance to get the result I want.

 

[Djtommy]

Also aesthetically, I like the look of unpinched shoots more then pinched ones.