Dwarf Alberta Spruce “I can feel the hate inside you”.

Adair M

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Also aesthetically, I like the look of unpinched shoots more then pinched ones.
You have Ezo spruce, right?

I have one Ezo, and it’s a recent acquisition, so I don’t have any experience with it. I did not pinch it as it grew this year. The new shoots are only about an inch long. The Ezo appears to only produce buds at nodes. From what I can see, looking at both this year’s new growth and previous year’s growth, there are buds at nodes only. I have not seen any buds form between nodes.

My Colorado Blue Spruce, however, WILL form buds along the new shoot as it grows. As will the Norway Spruce I have planted in my landscape.

It appears that not all spruce act the same. Just as single flush and double flush pines act differently.

“It depends”...
 

sorce

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Also aesthetically, I like the look of unpinched shoots more then pinched ones.

When?

That spring? Or next fall?

Somehow, there "is and isn't" a difference.

My thing is....it DOES cost energy, so why remove it?
I have been removing just a few needles from around strong areas in fall, this has balance near perfect.
With only the removal of a few needles.

That is a large difference in energy loss.

Sorce
 
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You misunderstand the technique. Pinching stimulates back buds that were set last year. It does not cause new buds to be set. That occurs through vascular traffic, by fertilizing the tree and getting it as vigorous as possible. Pinching has nothing to do with creating back buds. A branch that needs back buds is in development and is not a candidate for pinching.

I pinched my dwarf Alberta spruce last year in May. Basically cut back somewhere along the currents year growth elongating shoot. The green part. It formed buds at the cut/pinched spot. It also backbudded but only from crotches.
 

Djtommy

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When?

That spring? Or next fall?

Somehow, there "is and isn't" a difference.

My thing is....it DOES cost energy, so why remove it?
I have been removing just a few needles from around strong areas in fall, this has balance near perfect.
With only the removal of a few needles.

That is a large difference in energy loss.

Sorce
i disagree, no large difference in energy loss. when i pinch its because i do not want that shoot to extend much or want interior shoots to extend more. you just take off a small portion of new growth and hence dont allow it to extend more, the energy it would take to grow that shoot into an even larger one is not gone, its simply being used at a different spot which will grow bigger then if left untouched. interior shoots get stronger faster like this.
 

Djtommy

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You have Ezo spruce, right?

I have one Ezo, and it’s a recent acquisition, so I don’t have any experience with it. I did not pinch it as it grew this year. The new shoots are only about an inch long. The Ezo appears to only produce buds at nodes. From what I can see, looking at both this year’s new growth and previous year’s growth, there are buds at nodes only. I have not seen any buds form between nodes.

My Colorado Blue Spruce, however, WILL form buds along the new shoot as it grows. As will the Norway Spruce I have planted in my landscape.

It appears that not all spruce act the same. Just as single flush and double flush pines act differently.

“It depends”...
ezo also produces buds along the new shoots when growing bigger. on branches that have no needles anymore backbuds more often occur on crotches but not exclusively
especially on strong branches that are being cutback.
but again, as @PiñonJ mentioned, pinching is not a method to create backbudding
 

Adair M

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ezo also produces buds along the new shoots when growing bigger. on branches that have no needles anymore backbuds more often occur on crotches but not exclusively
especially on strong branches that are being cutback.
but again, as @PiñonJ mentioned, pinching is not a method to create backbudding
Thanks, Dj!!!

After reading your post, I went back and inspected my Ezo. And indeed, you are correct! Most of the new shoots on my Ezo are about 3/4 inch long or shorter. About 10% are as long as an inch or an inch and a quarter. None longer than that. Those longer ones DO have buds about half way along the length of the new shoot. The shorter shoots, those under an inch, do not appear to have created any internode buds.

So I stand corrected!
 

coh

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Thanks, Dj!!!

After reading your post, I went back and inspected my Ezo. And indeed, you are correct! Most of the new shoots on my Ezo are about 3/4 inch long or shorter. About 10% are as long as an inch or an inch and a quarter. None longer than that. Those longer ones DO have buds about half way along the length of the new shoot. The shorter shoots, those under an inch, do not appear to have created any internode buds.

So I stand corrected!
This is similar to what happens with Engelman as well. If you let new shoots grow out without pinching, you'll get buds at the tip and usually a few at various places along the new shoot. However, if you pinch that shoot as it elongates, you'll usually only get new buds at the base of the shoot and eventually that pinched shoot will die back (though not for a year or two). They will also bud further back on older growth especially if you let the tree grow vigorously without pinching.
 

sorce

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no large difference in energy loss.

Let's not disagree. Let's understand it's different for a different end.

Between 10- 16 needles have been removed. It could be less and work, each needle seems to account for an exact percent.
20200507_190315.jpg
20200507_190341.jpg

Bottom of tree.
20200507_190532.jpg

Regular top.
20200507_190544.jpg

Regulated top.
20200507_190548.jpg

This doesn't cause anything except what you see. So there is less redirected energy, I feel the "changing of the guard", costs more energy than working WITH the tree.

Energy lost in full branches or segments, is segregated to that area.
"Local energy" Ryan Neil (inexact)
So it doesn't "cost".

If we are speaking of "balancing energy" alone, I am removing 12 needles and causing no other "confusion", or response, "changing of the guard", from the tree.

That is different.

I argue less energy spent.
Less holes open.

Aesthetic end doesn't suck.

I'm pleased, within good logical Sense of proportion, that this technique can refine this Shohin size Black Hills Spruce.

It doesn't make sense to do it differently, but that doesn't mean I can't be convinced, or rather, wouldn't mind having more tools in the belt.
20200507_190436.jpg

There is no argument to disagree with😉!

Sorce
 

PiñonJ

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I argue less energy spent.
Less holes open.

Aesthetic end doesn't suck.

Sorce
The first two points are simply incorrect. You're taking needles that the tree has already fully invested its resources in and removing them while they're still photosynthetically efficient. The new shoot is not yet contributing to positive energy production as it's drawing resources from the tree while it grows. As to the second point, you're opening a hole at every needle you pluck, as opposed to a single hole, which is the small-bored stem of the new shoot. The third point is more subjective and debatable, but I think those branches you've plucked look like they've been attacked by a pest and are not aesthetically pleasing.🧐
 
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Djtommy

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Thanks, Dj!!!

After reading your post, I went back and inspected my Ezo. And indeed, you are correct! Most of the new shoots on my Ezo are about 3/4 inch long or shorter. About 10% are as long as an inch or an inch and a quarter. None longer than that. Those longer ones DO have buds about half way along the length of the new shoot. The shorter shoots, those under an inch, do not appear to have created any internode buds.

So I stand corrected!
Those are long shoots, most on my trees never get
Let's not disagree. Let's understand it's different for a different end.

Between 10- 16 needles have been removed. It could be less and work, each needle seems to account for an exact percent.
View attachment 301339
View attachment 301338

Bottom of tree.
View attachment 301337

Regular top.
View attachment 301336

Regulated top.
View attachment 301342

This doesn't cause anything except what you see. So there is less redirected energy, I feel the "changing of the guard", costs more energy than working WITH the tree.

Energy lost in full branches or segments, is segregated to that area.
"Local energy" Ryan Neil (inexact)
So it doesn't "cost".

If we are speaking of "balancing energy" alone, I am removing 12 needles and causing no other "confusion", or response, "changing of the guard", from the tree.

That is different.

I argue less energy spent.
Less holes open.

Aesthetic end doesn't suck.

I'm pleased, within good logical Sense of proportion, that this technique can refine this Shohin size Black Hills Spruce.

It doesn't make sense to do it differently, but that doesn't mean I can't be convinced, or rather, wouldn't mind having more tools in the belt.
View attachment 301341

There is no argument to disagree with😉!

Sorce
So you remove a part of last years needles? That I never do.
maybe can work for balancing but sound like you can damage the branches doing that.
balancing can be done by pruning and pinching
this is a Shohin ezo first picture October 2017, second now.
growth was very balanced this year thanx to previous years controlling of top growth.
whatever works, works
02662856-7150-414D-BE7E-E02A9042A914.jpegE719DF7E-5884-4EF3-A0D0-55D640BD196E.jpeg
 

sorce

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I "kleenexed", "reasonably debate", with that "tissue" which is argue....that shit wiping tissue!

Or is it I "tissued", "reasonably debate", like Kleenex in the wind?

With aloe to sooth your butthole!

This is why people should just remember I'm not here to argue! Then all, or half, of my words always make Sense!

Cheers!

Sorce
 

PiñonJ

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Let's not disagree. Let's understand it's different for a different end.

Between 10- 16 needles have been removed. It could be less and work, each needle seems to account for an exact percent.
View attachment 301339
View attachment 301338

Bottom of tree.
View attachment 301337

Regular top.
View attachment 301336

Regulated top.
View attachment 301342

This doesn't cause anything except what you see. So there is less redirected energy, I feel the "changing of the guard", costs more energy than working WITH the tree.

Energy lost in full branches or segments, is segregated to that area.
"Local energy" Ryan Neil (inexact)
So it doesn't "cost".

If we are speaking of "balancing energy" alone, I am removing 12 needles and causing no other "confusion", or response, "changing of the guard", from the tree.

That is different.

I argue less energy spent.
Less holes open.

Aesthetic end doesn't suck.

I'm pleased, within good logical Sense of proportion, that this technique can refine this Shohin size Black Hills Spruce.

It doesn't make sense to do it differently, but that doesn't mean I can't be convinced, or rather, wouldn't mind having more tools in the belt.
View attachment 301341

There is no argument to disagree with😉!

Sorce
I somehow pulled the trigger before responding. Please see edited post #70.
 

sorce

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sound like you can damage the branches doing that.

Even fire doesn't cause worse damage when burning aphids.

I think that's how those needles got lost in the first Place.

Sorce
 

sorce

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I somehow pulled the trigger before responding. Please see edited post #70.

It's shutting you down again? Wtf?
It looks the same!

No Worries.
The only thing we can "get ahead of" is BS. And I'm not smelling any. Close ....
Just a fart.

Sorce
 

Adair M

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Those are long shoots, most on my trees never get

So you remove a part of last years needles? That I never do.
maybe can work for balancing but sound like you can damage the branches doing that.
balancing can be done by pruning and pinching
this is a Shohin ezo first picture October 2017, second now.
growth was very balanced this year thanx to previous years controlling of top growth.
whatever works, works
View attachment 301356View attachment 301357
Most of my shoots are 1/2 to 5/8 inch. Only a few are over 3/4 inch.
82D0E68F-C3C4-44B3-B745-FB5FC4853409.jpeg

6837D002-EF79-4A32-B36E-D24047D209C9.jpeg

00BB9743-FB70-4F2D-9C74-E4DEA9954B6F.jpeg
 

sorce

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So you remove a part of last years needles? That I never do.
maybe can work for balancing but sound like you can damage the branches doing that.

I still can't get over the fact that we may actually think cutting branches is less damage to branches than cutting needles!

Anywho.

I reckon if I found a need to pinch new growth that hasn't contributed, I'd wait to see these buds and cut back to them.
20200522_142949.jpg20200522_121812.jpg

Sorce
 

Arcto

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An update. I let the growth run all summer.
DE334FDA-4E0D-4DDE-B896-DE7A2723A09D.jpeg
The tree started to give me backbuds. I would like more.
.55DF6B1E-83DF-43DF-A26E-B8941E01644B.jpeg

We were fortunate to not be in the terrible fires that have devastated the west coast. There was no escaping the smoke and hazardous air quality though. My better half agreed to me working on the tree in our kitchen. Probably a tactical error on her part. D16B0B8D-4FF2-4583-95B7-0BFD024BFCA7.jpeg
Fine work done. Now just a final shot of fertilizer and fall recovery.
2F797810-D8AC-4C9C-A408-FADE1C80F981.jpeg
 
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