Eastern Red Cedars

[Vance Wood]

No Badger trees from me brother. There are interesting Red Cedars where I live near Chattanooga in the mountains.

As is the case with all Yamidori it is always location, location, location. It is location that takes a tree that is normally straight and uninteresting and contorts it into something worth of the bonsai art; the species matters little it can happen to anything.

 

[cascade]

Virginiana

Very nice bit of work there!

Thank you, Vance. We will see how it develops.

One thing the Virginiana already taught me is not to trim off anything that browned off too soon. Most likely you will have a new shoot emerging from the base of the dried off twiglett. If you pull off the browned branchlet thinking you are cleaning up the tree you will most likely injure the new bud.

Lesson: Be patient and watch what the tree does. Ha!

-dorothy

 

[Martin Sweeney]

All,

One of the best Juniperus virginiana I have seen, it was collected and trained by Ken Duncan, was dug from a drainage ditch along side a road in South Carolina, if I remember correctly. Maybe Ken will see this thread and post a picture and refresh my memory.

Perhaps in addition to location it is also a numbers game. The more trees you look at in more places, the more likely you are to find something. I have seen a number of Carolina collected-from-the-wild trees that were not yamadori (which I understands means collected from the mountains or something similar), but were from far humbler origins, like drainage ditches (Ken's Juniperus virginiana), fence lines (a pitch pine in the Staples Collection at the NC Arboretum see post #6 in http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?t=897) and near old fishing ponds (this forsythia http://www.thegrowinggrounds.com/transplant/transplant.htm).

Regards,

Martin

 

[tom tynan]

I collected a few in NJ in 2003/2004 along an abandoned railroad track area. I agree it is hard to find one with good movement and curves. The one I am showing has a nice gentle curve with some deadwood at the base. I planted it in a big half oak barrel for a few years and just let it grow; then for fun I started breaking and pulling down some branches to make it more compact. The second photo is Fall last year; with alot of sun and fertilizer they really do fill out fast. I will wire this one again this year and finally get an overall shape defined. If you look for an ERC in an open field - you are likely to find a straight column-form tree. I would look in more extreme areas, such as slopes, embankments etc. They are fun to work with, and fairly cheap [free] if you can find one with a good curve in the trunk...Tom

 

[rockm]

You have pointed to the exceptions to the rule. Yeah, sure it CAN make pretty good bonsai, but you also run into a nice serissa every now and then . What you haven't shown are the hundreds of failed, awkward, ugly and plain worthless ERC stock and "bonsai" that are out there.

This species typically makes pitiful bonsai (regardless of trunk shape). As Dorothy pointed out, it has some quirky growing habits that work against bonsai treatment. Growth is mostly rank and lanky. Juvenile growth is prickly, unmanageable and only gets worse. It also seems to prefer to push mature growth from a few established growth centers on specific places on a few branches. Those centers take a while to establish and never show up where they're needed in a design.

Sorry, this species ain't worth the trouble, unless you find an exceptional AND collectible trunk--if you're that lucky, you have probably already won the MegaMillions jackpot and can afford vastly superior Japanese imports...

I lived in the Blue Ridge Mts. for some time. The huge majority of ERC there are also mostly beanpole, vanilla crap. Those crappy ERC grow alongside very nice and sometimes spectacular native common juniper, table mt. pine, white oak, beech and Virginia pine.

 

[catfish chapstick]

they ARE worth the trouble

You have pointed to the exceptions to the rule. Yeah, sure it CAN make pretty good bonsai, but you also run into a nice serissa every now and then . What you haven't shown are the hundreds of failed, awkward, ugly and plain worthless ERC stock and "bonsai" that are out there.

This species typically makes pitiful bonsai (regardless of trunk shape). As Dorothy pointed out, it has some quirky growing habits that work against bonsai treatment. Growth is mostly rank and lanky. Juvenile growth is prickly, unmanageable and only gets worse. It also seems to prefer to push mature growth from a few established growth centers on specific places on a few branches. Those centers take a while to establish and never show up where they're needed in a design.

Sorry, this species ain't worth the trouble, unless you find an exceptional AND collectible trunk--if you're that lucky, you have probably already won the MegaMillions jackpot and can afford vastly superior Japanese imports...

I lived in the Blue Ridge Mts. for some time. The huge majority of ERC there are also mostly beanpole, vanilla crap. Those crappy ERC grow alongside very nice and sometimes spectacular native common juniper, table mt. pine, white oak, beech and Virginia pine.

i love the eastern red cedar. it will take more than some quirky growing habits to deter me from searching and collecting these. the fact that people often have negative oppinions like this only motivates me more to find/create a few nice ones. if you find one on a rocky slope chances are it has plenty of bonsai potential to make a worthwhile project. i collect whatever i can and there are thousands of these to pick from. they are exeptionally strong growers which makes them easy to collect fairly forgiving. as far as finding an exeptional trunk; depends what you're looking for. i like to collect my own trees. i don't want an import. the satisfaction is unmatched

 

[rockm]

"i love the eastern red cedar. it will take more than some quirky growing habits to deter me from searching and collecting these. the fact that people often have negative oppinions like this only motivates me more to find/create a few nice ones. if you find one on a rocky slope chances are it has plenty of bonsai potential to make a worthwhile project. i collect whatever i can and there are thousands of these to pick from. they are exeptionally strong growers which makes them easy to collect fairly forgiving. as far as finding an exeptional trunk; depends what you're looking for. i like to collect my own trees. i don't want an import. the satisfaction is unmatched"

Good for you. If you find a nice trunk, collect it. They are few and very far between. however.

I also dig my own trees, have for 15 years or so now. I've dug alot of native species here in Virginia, from blueberry, beech, hornbeam, black cherry, virginia pine, ERC, wild wisteria, blackhaw, sweet gum, wild rose. I've also collected in East Texas. I understand the satisfaction of "getting a good one." In that time, I've never come across an ERC trunk worth a damn and believe me, I've looked. Not saying they're not out there. It's just that there are usually more compelling trunks on other species that make a decent ERC trunk look only average.

My "negative opinion' is more of a "why waste time on inferior material when there are so many OTHER species that provide a better return on my time and effort." Why fuss for years with something that really is only going to make an OK tree, when I can put the same time (and less effort) into a species that will actually develop into an exceptional bonsai.

And as for "easy to collect," can you saw 95 percent of the rootball off of a four inch diameter trunk, chop the top 5/6 of the tree off, bareroot the remaining roots, plunk the stump in a ceramic container, box it up, ship it via airmail 1,000 miles in the same day and have it bud out the following spring? I've done this with a number of native deciduous species after collecting them in Texas and shipping them home, wouldn't ever think of doing that with a conifer, no matter how "tough" it is supposed to be.

 

[Rick Moquin]

i love the eastern red cedar. it will take more than some quirky growing habits to deter me from searching and collecting these. the fact that people often have negative oppinions like this only motivates me more to find/create a few nice ones. if you find one on a rocky slope chances are it has plenty of bonsai potential to make a worthwhile project. i collect whatever i can and there are thousands of these to pick from. they are exeptionally strong growers which makes them easy to collect fairly forgiving. as far as finding an exeptional trunk; depends what you're looking for. i like to collect my own trees. i don't want an import. the satisfaction is unmatched

Interesting observation and I admire your enthusiasm. The downside to such misplaced enthusiasm is the morning you wake up after 5 or so years only to find that your tree threw a branch for unknow reasons, requiring a complete redesign. I believe this is what folks are alluring to.

I would love to have a white weeping birch, there are some absolutely stunning trees out there. Unfortunately, they are very frustrating for the aforementioned reasons.

I know personally how I feel after getting a tree close to where I want it, throw me a wobbler. I try and avoid this by no longer working on less than ideal candidates for bonsai culture.

 

[ghues]

Hey Rick,
I understand and others will too but isn't that just a part of this hobby/art? Having to rethink/redesign a tree (maybe only slightly or drastically perhaps when you finally see the tree within) is part of the transformation of the tree over time.
I like the challenge of working with local trees, scouring the local landscape, getting to examine how they've adapted to the local environmental conditions. I think that we should do more in prompting our own local species and designing them in a style that reflects the character of the species. Also I think that should also go for the total display.......exhibiting local trees with accent plants from the same habitat?! No expert but wouldn't that also align itself with the "rules".... a slight change of topic but just some thoughts?

Cheers Gman

 

[catfish chapstick]

why waste time on inferior material when there are so many OTHER species that provide a better return on my time and effort.

i enjoy it, which is all that matters. perhaps years down the road i'll change my thinking but i hope i don't. i hope i have some really attractive eastern red cedars. i bet i will. if i don't though was it all a waste of time and effort??

 

[Rick Moquin]

Hey Rick,
I understand and others will too but isn't that just a part of this hobby/art? Having to rethink/redesign a tree (maybe only slightly or drastically perhaps when you finally see the tree within) is part of the transformation of the tree over time.

Graham, I have to agree with you but, with reservation. You are absolutely correct. It is indeed a great way to learn and improve your design abilities. Nature in fact is probably one of the best teachers. That being said...

I also lay a lot of credence towards the more advanced/experience enthusiasts and avoid their pitfalls so to speak, as I am not one to reinvent the wheel. As I stated I absolutely would love to have a white birch, and of course a weeping one as well, I still do. However I am a realist, I know how frustrating it is to throw a tree out that no longer has any potential. I have had many a conversation with learned enthusiast on the subject regarding certain species etc... Some species are suitable for bonsai some are less. If in this case birch was a suitable species, wouldn't we see more of them?

Everyone is free to practice this passion at their own comfort level etc... I am just one that my youth is behind me and wish to enjoy the fruits of my labour in the future, not the distant future

I like the challenge of working with local trees, scouring the local landscape, getting to examine how they've adapted to the local environmental conditions. I think that we should do more in prompting our own local species and designing them in a style that reflects the character of the species.

I have been weening out my collection to encompass fewer species, particularly towards the one that thrive in my neck of the woods and adapt easily to life in a pot. As stated I applaud folks that think and venture outside the box. However, I will not paint a rosy picture for them. In saying that I wish 'em all the success possible in their venture.

 

[rockm]

"I understand and others will too but isn't that just a part of this hobby/art? Having to rethink/redesign a tree (maybe only slightly or drastically perhaps when you finally see the tree within) is part of the transformation of the tree over time."


You first have to have a "design" to re-design. This species, and a few others, typically offers very little in the way of design choices---unless you're very advanced, or very very lucky. With ERC, it's not so much seeing the tree within. It's seeing what you can wrestle into place and make due, typically limping along until the design collapses.

This is true with many "pioneer" species that are common in areas that have been recently cleared, or where not much else will grow. Species like willow, birch, black cherry, ERC and others are experts at adapting quickly, growing strongly, but can drop limbs, shut down entire portions of trunks if pruned too aggressively.

It's those kinds of traits that also have to be considered.

I love local species. I encourage their use. I have many myself. However, I try to understand WHY they do what they do and how they do it. Understanding them on a deeper level can help greatly when trying to adapt them to bonsai culture. THey're all hardly the same. ERC is far too quirky and unstable as bonsai material, IMO

 

[Martin Sweeney]

All,

Saw this interesting thread on Internet Bonsai Club:

http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/b...na-upside-down-garden-yamadori-1999-t2205.htm

Regards,
Martin

 

[rockm]

I too saw this thread on IBC. Great tree.

However, it should be noted this tree was dug from a garden in Eastern Europe. ERC is not native to Europe, but to North America. This plant originally came from a nursery. It's genetic origins are from cuttings taken from specimens chosen and grown specifically for landscape sale---which means it's hardly typical of what is being collected here from the wilds in the US.

 

[Vance Wood]

I too saw this thread on IBC. Great tree.

However, it should be noted this tree was dug from a garden in Eastern Europe. ERC is not native to Europe, but to North America. This plant originally came from a nursery. It's genetic origins are from cuttings taken from specimens chosen and grown specifically for landscape sale---which means it's hardly typical of what is being collected here from the wilds in the US.

That does bring up a point: There are a number of differences between this species that vary from state to state. I have been told by someone who has grown them that those trees from Iowa are superior to those in Michigan. Junipers can be a highly variable species. No one doubts the viability of Shimpaku for its use as a bonsai. In the early bonsai books it was called Sargent's Juniper; which it is, but it is a sub-species known as Shimpaku. Any one who has worked with Sargent's Juniper as a species will tell you that it has many of the same issues some have been quoting about J. Virginianis; foliage dying and branches abandoned for no reason. This is true, in my experience, because I have had one or two that have done just that.

 

[rockm]

There are several cultivars of ERC used for landscaping:
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/...s-new/cultivars/juniperous_virgini-table.html

It should be noted these most likely are generated by cuttings from specific plants that exhibit the characteristics listed. They're not specially-developed varieties. The individual genetic traits of their parent plant makes it more desirable (or at least saleable) than its neighboring trees.

Most native "cultivars" in the landscaping trade are originally generated from cuttings from specific individual trees that show interesting characteristics, meaning the trees sold in nurseries are clones mostly beginning with a single tree, or extremely localized population.

also, note the characterstics here--"Loose foliage" "Fastigate"--which means bolt upright habit, etc., mostly don't jibe with what's needed for bonsai cultivation.

 

[catfish chapstick]

All,

Saw this interesting thread on Internet Bonsai Club:

http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/b...na-upside-down-garden-yamadori-1999-t2205.htm

Regards,
Martin

how much more proof do you need?
how could you percieve that as a waste of time??

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Here is two I collected in 06. One ,as Rock said is really lanky but has back budded quite a bit. I will have to go out and take some new pics of them. I plan on working on it this year. I will let you know how it responds. Now I could be wrong on the species but I do believe they are ceders. They are some type of juniper. I collected them at an old farm house and was told it was Virginiana. I will go out when the weather lets me and get some shots of the foliage and maybe I can find our for sure.

A Friend in bonsai
John

Most people use a beer can or pack of cigarettes for scale...don't often see a TRAILER used for scale! Helluva find! That's fun!

 

[rockm]

"how much more proof do you need?
how could you percieve that as a waste of time??"

Um, see my earlier remarks on why this tree is an exception. It is not what the vast majority of people in the US are dealing with. It is NOT a wild collected specimen. It is a landscape specimen grown from nursery material that was selected specifically for that purpose.

Thinking this kind of tree is a typical result of working with collected, native ERC is naive.

 

[Vance Wood]

According to Dir, there are 22 cultivars of this species. This tells me that the species is widely viable and considering that most cultivars are found by accident not purpose it must be assumed that there is a possibility of finding a decent tree out in the wild that does not necessarily assume the traits of what we have come to identify as Red Cedar. Is it a waste of time? Maybe; but time and the wasting of it is the purview of those whose time it is to waste.