Ficus Salicaria From Dragon Tree

[agraham]

Kaya,

Welcome to the world of internet bonsai.

Andy

 

[carp]

@Nelil:

I understand today that tropicals are becoming more popular among modern Japanese bonsai artists, but I was referring to "Traditional Japanese Bonsai". That is why I used Kimura as an example; he is a Japanese master, and not thought as a traditionalist, but he does not work with tropicals either.

But really, if I'm wrong on the Japanese Show's not having a category for Tropical trees please correct me, because I would like to know and see.

 

[A Random User]

Erik Wigert is a nursery grower, he own's and operates Wigert's Bonsai.
Old Florida Bonsai is a bonsai nursery owned and operated by Richard and JJ Turner.
Dragontree is a bonsai nursery owned and operated by Robert Pinder.
Adam Lavigne is a bonsai artist and operates a bonsai nursery from his backyard; also good personal friends with Erik Wigert.
Jason Schley owns and operates Schley's Bonsai.
Mike Cartrett owns and operates Palm Beach Bonsai.
David VanBuskirk owns and operates D&L Bonsai Nursery.
Jim Smith owns and operates Durastone Nursery.
I don't know the name of Mike Rogers' nursery, but he also operates a bonsai nursery.

Wigert's, Schley's, and D&L have the highest prices are grow the majority of their pre-bonsai stock in bonsai mix. Pretty sure all three use the "standard Florida mix" as we call it; Turface, Pine Bark, and Lava Rock 1:1:1

Old Florida, Dragontree, Adam Lavigne, Mike Rogers, Durastone and Palm Beach have the majority of the pre-bonsai stock in an organic mix. They grow the same quality plants, and charge a significantly lower price.

It is much cheaper to pot 500 plants in an organic mix, than in any "bonsai mix". The ingredients in bonsai mixes are much more expensive than an organic mix. This is not uncommon practice in bonsai nurseries. These are all local Florida bonsai nursery growers. I don't know how much clearer I need to be here.

And no, the Japanese do not typically work with tropicals. The Southeastern Asian countries do, but they are not Japanese. Traditional Japanese bonsai is strict. Ben Oki once said that Brazillian Rain Tree could not be used for bonsai, literally saying "no good for bonsai"; until he saw Jim Moody's. That is the general attitude of traditional Japanese bonsai on the idea of tropical bonsai. The Japanese grow their trees differently than they do in the Philippines, Taiwan, Indonesia and South China. Look how much show stopping tropical bonsai comes from these regions and then show me some traditional Japanese bonsai artists using tropicals. Key word is Traditional. Kimura is no way a traditionalist; but he does not even work with tropicals. Traditional Japanese bonsai does not use tropical trees and I don't think any Japanese show has a "Tropical" category but they do have "Evergreen", "Broadleaf", "Flowering", "Deciduous" (I could be wrong on this one).

The statement about not treating a ficus the same way as pine, maple, or juniper was to reiterate the fact that traditional Japanese bonsai is not the same as tropical bonsai. It was obviously (or not so obviously) implying the fact that the Japanese methods do not always apply to tropical species. Growing "tropical" bonsai indoors is also not the same as what we do here in Florida, or any of those South Eastern Asian counties where our trees are outdoors all year.

My point on the soil is; it does not matter what you grow your trees in. Jim Smith is known as the best North American Tropical Bonsai artist, and he grows his trees in 100% Turface. From Ficus, Buttonwood, Bougainvillea, to Simpson Stopper, Gumbo Limbo, and Baobab. It all grows in Turface with no organics and the same heat. Like I said in that other thread, I don't consider the phrase "bonsai mix" to be an organic mix. When I think organic mix I think of something like Peat Moss, Washed Sand, and Pine Bark 1:1:1. It's totally organic, so its an organic mix. Turface, Lava, Pine Bark 1:1:1 is mostly inorganic; I call it inorganic. It's semantics. It really is.

What you did say was, "The plant is in a heavy organic mix now and it seems to enjoy it, probably Dragon Tree finds it easier to keep them healthy in your heat with an organic mix. I know most Florida growers rely heavy on organics for this very reason." And in reality, it doesn't matter as far as keeping the soil wet or the trees like to grow in dirt more than clay; it's simply because its cheaper. You can buy Buttonwood from Old Florida bonsai that are fifteen inches tall, three inches wide, and growing in a fourteen inch bulb pan for almost a third of the price what it would cost at Wigert's. Because Old Florida grows their pre-bonsai in organic soil vs. Wigert who grows his in inorganic bonsai mix. It's not a matter of who grows better trees at all; its a matter of who has less cost in each of their trees. Its simple economics. When I say "don't get your mind wrapped up on soil mixes"; its because a tree will grow in any substrate as long as you water it according to that substrate and the trees needs. To be honest, the only reason I use anything mixed with anything is because it looks better than straight Turface; except with my Buttonwood and Cypress.

Lastly; you were saying that it would be best to layer the trunk and create a new nebari. My point about Jim Smith and repotting is that with a ficus, no matter what the roots look like under or above the soil line; you can cut them all off without affecting the tree's health. There is absolutely no need to layer the trunk, and I'm sure that when the soil is washed from the tree, those circling roots are coming from the bottom of the trunk and easily removed anyhow. Again, tropicals are not like Japanese bonsai. Black Pine; all of the vigor is stored in the roots and when you repot, you have to be very delicate. Treating it the way we do Tropicals during repotting will kill it and the same goes for Maple and Juniper. Thats the problem with circling roots in traditional Japanese bonsai; you can't simply go in and cut them all out the way you can with a tropical bonsai. That was my whole point.

I really don't have time to keep going through this with you anytime I post in the same thread as you Ed, but when I see something as misinformed, I want to correct it.

And yes, I mean Jim Smith who runs Durastone. His pre-bonsai are grown in an organic medium, because again, its cheaper. His personal trees are grown in 100% Turface. The entire Heathcote collection of 100 trees are all in Turface.

This is not correct... Sorry.
Erik does not grow the majority of his pre-bonsai in a bonsai soil.
It's in the same soil of that of a plant bought from Home Depot.

Now as far as his prices... bottom line, he gets a larger volume of customers.
They are willing to pay the price, and most are located in central or west Florida.
Which means they don't have to add another 2 and a half hour drive time each
way to their journey. Not to mention he stays better connected with the public
and customers he is selling too and is a very likeable guy. Jim Smith's nursery,
on the other hand only has a web site that shows his personal trees. To be
honest... I couldn't actually tell you what he has. Because, unless you have
actually been to his place, you wouldn't even know he sells bonsai. This is not
to knock them or their marketing, or should I say lack of marketing, it is merely
to try and explain why Eric is able to ask for and get higher prices for his product.

 

[Neli]

@Nelil:

I understand today that tropicals are becoming more popular among modern Japanese bonsai artists, but I was referring to "Traditional Japanese Bonsai". That is why I used Kimura as an example; he is a Japanese master, and not thought as a traditionalist, but he does not work with tropicals either.

But really, if I'm wrong on the Japanese Show's not having a category for Tropical trees please correct me, because I would like to know and see.

Have you been to the bonsai museum in omyia? They have bougies on display.

 

[carp]

This is not correct... Sorry.
Erik does not grow the majority of his pre-bonsai in a bonsai soil.
It's in the same soil of that of a plant bought from Home Depot.

Now as far as his prices... bottom line, he gets a larger volume of customers.
They are willing to pay the price, and most are located in central or west Florida.
Which means they don't have to add another 2 and a half hour drive time each
way to their journey. Not to mention he stays better connected with the public
and customers he is selling too and is a very likeable guy. Jim Smith's nursery,
on the other hand only has a web site that shows his personal trees. To be
honest... I couldn't actually tell you what he has. Because, unless you have
actually been to his place, you wouldn't even know he sells bonsai. This is not
to knock them or their marketing, or should I say lack of marketing, it is merely
to try and explain why Eric is able to ask for and get higher prices for his product.

As far as I understand Jim Smith is really out of the business but keeps his doors open, he's not in good health either. All of his trees, in his personal collection, are in 100% turface, and his nursery trees are in all organic mixes. Like you said though, the place isn't in good shape these days. He isn't in very good health these days and may not be around to much longer. Erik definitely grows high quality trees, theres no question, and his prices are definitely justifiable. Bonsai soil is a contributing factor for a nursery when you deal with the mass and volume of plants that need to be potted. Then again, because the plants are in bonsai mixes, the root systems will be finer and more "ready" for bonsai pots; again justifying the cost of his trees. If you look on his eBay store, every single plant is always in bonsai mix, but I guess that doesn't account for his entire nursery.

 

[M. Frary]

Why doesn't this Jim Smith fella like good nebari. It's a prerequisite to good bonsai. It gives them a feeling of age.

 

[KayaMooney]

Why doesn't this Jim Smith fella like good nebari. It's a prerequisite to good bonsai. It gives them a feeling of age.

He's not just some fella, hes a great artist and tropical bonsai would not be the same if it weren't for him. It's not that he doesn't like a strong nebari, It's just not one of his main focuses.

 

[A Random User]

As far as I understand Jim Smith is really out of the business but keeps his doors open, he's not in good health either. All of his trees, in his personal collection, are in 100% turface, and his nursery trees are in all organic mixes. Like you said though, the place isn't in good shape these days. He isn't in very good health these days and may not be around to much longer. Erik definitely grows high quality trees, theres no question, and his prices are definitely justifiable. Bonsai soil is a contributing factor for a nursery when you deal with the mass and volume of plants that need to be potted. Then again, because the plants are in bonsai mixes, the root systems will be finer and more "ready" for bonsai pots; again justifying the cost of his trees. If you look on his eBay store, every single plant is always in bonsai mix, but I guess that doesn't account for his entire nursery.

Yes, the trees he sells on Ebay in actual bonsai pots are in a bonsai soil, however, these
don't even account for a percentage of what he actually has.
Everything else he sells are in regular nursery soil.
The only other exception to this is Bougies, he will often pot them in the
nursery pots, with bonsai soil to help in aiding them to flower.

 

[M. Frary]

He's not just some fella, hes a great artist and tropical bonsai would not be the same if it weren't for him. It's not that he doesn't like a strong nebari, It's just not one of his main focuses.

Excuse me. I looked him up and he has some nice trees. Just one thing though. They all had decent surface footage????

 

[carp]

In the main, Jim Smith trees will have crossing roots, circling roots or no roots at all. He is a tropic bonsai master, the best in America, but he just doesn't put the same emphasis on nebari as other masters. Just something he does differently I guess.

 

[KayaMooney]

I tackled the roots today and repotted it into a mix of potting soil, perlite and some left over bonsai soil for added drainage. I got a root clump cutting out of it and a bunch of odd little root cuttings as well. I knew it had a decent base underneath the mess of roots that were on top. I'm just going to let it get some growth and think about the future design for a while before making anymore major chops.