Good? or trash?

[petegreg]

Fresh? How fresh should it be?

 

[Paradox]

Fresh? How fresh should it be?

Dont let sorce read that....heaven knows how he will respond.....

While the tree will never be a masterpiece, as a newcomer to the hobby, the OP can learn something from it, even if it is only how to keep it alive.

If he fails to do that, at least it is only a few dollars instead of a few hundred.

 

[sorce]

Lol...I think the OP actually left!

He's in a dumpster somewhere!

I just deleted Lodi from my weather list.

Sorce

 

[Timbo]

While the tree will never be a masterpiece, as a newcomer to the hobby, the OP can learn something from it, even if it is only how to keep it alive.

If he fails to do that, at least it is only a few dollars instead of a few hundred.

This is where you guys lose me reading. The fact that i have limited places and money to find "good material" and that i'm new, I find some of these trees posted on forums OK to good. To me if the trees were perfect it doesn't say much for a persons skills...just clip and keep it alive. Not saying that's easy cause i know it's not but isn't that part of the challenge? If turning "junk" into good bonsai isn't fun or worth it, i dunno why anyone does it.

Everyone seems bent on everything being show winning trees. While that would be nice, is that really the point if someone calls it a masterpiece or not? If i did a good job and i liked how a tree looks that is satisfaction enough for me! If someone says it's junk oh well, i find lots of masterpieces junk. Like roots that look like a big blob. Or a tree that hangs on the floor that is a fence post in nature.
I voted for a hemlock at a bonsai show....it had a smooth taper with really close foliage. Up here to even have one that keeps it leaves long enough to enjoy would be nice, as they are fragile. It looked natural but unique, I voted for it not because it was 500 years old or had a massive 1' trunk, but because to me that seemed like a hard thing to accomplish. Everyone I've seen in the wild has long branches with half the needles missing...including the 2 I've collected that would probably be considered "never to be a masterpiece".
I'm not railing on paradox, i think she? was trying to be helpful, it's just discouraging and frustrating if you are excited about a hobby or something and people say it's crap.
That's one reason i haven't posted any trees yet.
I doubt any new people will post a tree and have all you guys say...wow that could win a show!

 

[petegreg]

Agree with you absolutely. I too like working with young or pre-bonsai or collected stuff. Sometimes from a seed... Just to learn many species and create sth with my own hands and eyes. Many of us here.

 

[Paradox]

This is where you guys lose me reading. The fact that i have limited places and money to find "good material" and that i'm new, I find some of these trees posted on forums OK to good. To me if the trees were perfect it doesn't say much for a persons skills...just clip and keep it alive. Not saying that's easy cause i know it's not but isn't that part of the challenge? If turning "junk" into good bonsai isn't fun or worth it, i dunno why anyone does it.

Everyone seems bent on everything being show winning trees. While that would be nice, is that really the point if someone calls it a masterpiece or not? If i did a good job and i liked how a tree looks that is satisfaction enough for me! If someone says it's junk oh well, i find lots of masterpieces junk. Like roots that look like a big blob. Or a tree that hangs on the floor that is a fence post in nature.
I voted for a hemlock at a bonsai show....it had a smooth taper with really close foliage. Up here to even have one that keeps it leaves long enough to enjoy would be nice, as they are fragile. It looked natural but unique, I voted for it not because it was 500 years old or had a massive 1' trunk, but because to me that seemed like a hard thing to accomplish. Everyone I've seen in the wild has long branches with half the needles missing...including the 2 I've collected that would probably be considered "never to be a masterpiece".
I'm not railing on paradox, i think she? was trying to be helpful, it's just discouraging and frustrating if you are excited about a hobby or something and people say it's crap.
That's one reason i haven't posted any trees yet.
I doubt any new people will post a tree and have all you guys say...wow that could win a show!

Youre right in that we are trying to be helpful, although it might not seem like it to you right now. Would you rather have honesty or do you want people to lie to you and tell you that you have a stellar piece of material when really you dont? It is not said to discourage you, it is said to be realistic and honest with you.

You are new, I/we get that. We all were once and we all bought material like the one you posted. I have a yard full of them. I still have the first tree I ever purchased, as ugly as it is, I am still proud of its development and the fact that I still have it alive. This tree could be the same for you.

Everyone seems bent on everything being show winning trees.

This is a blanket statement and its a misconception. As a beginner, your goal right now is to learn, not to have a masterpiece bonsai. You have to start somewhere. I have always advocated that new people learn with cheap material because when you kill it (and you will kill some), it only cost you a few dollars instead of a tree that cost 100s of dollars. I never encourage a new person to spend that kind of money until they get confidence enough to know they can keep things alive.

I can't and wont lie to you. The tree posted will most likely never be a masterpiece tree.. I do feel however it is valuable because it can teach you some things.
The first thing you need to learn how to keep things alive. If you cant do that then you cant do bonsai. Dead trees dont make bonsai.
It can give you experience with watering, feeding, placement, and overwintering. All these things = keeping it alive.
It can give you experience with repotting, wiring, pruning (though not all at once). These things are what we call "development"
If you can get this tree to survive through all that, youll see some changes happening along the way and you might end up with a tree you can still be proud of even if its not a masterpiece.

Welcome to the addiction we call bonsai
Good Luck

 

[Timbo]

I knew when i wrote that someone would say "you want me to lie". Missing the point, It's not about telling someone it's not the greatest material, It's the attitude. I mean posting "it's trash" and have it repeated more than once, really doesn't help anyone understand. Help and opinions are fine, it's what i look for if i ask something. In fairness probably not the best title to pick.
And no i don't think it's a misconception, when bonsai trees are talked about what is the comparison? If it's "show quality". Bottom line a "pro" or a beginner it's still a matter of opinion and perception. In reality you can take a "trash" tree and still make it a bonsai. Who sets the standards for what is and isn't? I'm sure all can agree it's not bonsai ready, but not sure how needing time for a certain tree equals trash or not.

 

[sorce]

I'm with you Timbo.

Without trying to insult anyone.....

Figure this....

The same folks that tell us..."be patient"
Are the same folks that run and buy "finished trees".

Is that not a lack of patience in itself?

Also....ponder this...

Vance (yes, I'm using Vance as a positive example....Again!) wanted this tree...

Note, Vance recently said, "approach the tree with a mindset that you ARE nature".
The exact quote....

I am nature and what would I do to this tree over for the next three hundred years? Sounds silly but you need to establish this kind of relationship with this tree.

This mentality, very "out the box", humble, visionary, what can you call it?

That is what it takes to understand how to make anything a good tree.

I have no doubt in my mind, that if our dumpster diving friend was a bit more patient and put that tree in Vance's hands, he would have made it a wicked tree...granted, he May be 100 before he got it there, but his mentality, if it remained!, would have seen it there.

Lastly, and this is again not to insult our previously mentioned "impatient" , "buy a finished tree folks", rather, to expand their minds.....

They are Again, the same folks who can graft roots, graft branches, restart nebari, know every tree grows......

But somehow can't apply these very things to "less than stellar" material.

That....is a lack of patience...
A lack of vision.

To each their own.
I remain on both sides of the argument.

But don't hold yourself back by not having VISION!

Sorce

 

[petegreg]

I'd like to specify what I mean saying pre- bonsai stock. We can buy it for tens or hundreds euro. Depending on what we can or want to invest. Time is money or do we want to invest time or money? If time let's put cheaper starters in the ground and wait some 3+ years. Plus we can control it's development, chop and shape it... If money, we should choose smart, best in person. And with some initial knowledge and skills, or under someone's supervision.

Edit: The phases of bonsai
http://www.bonsainut.com/threads/the-phases-of-bonsai.24095/#post-371646

 

[Paradox]

I knew when i wrote that someone would say "you want me to lie". Missing the point, It's not about telling someone it's not the greatest material, It's the attitude. I mean posting "it's trash" and have it repeated more than once, really doesn't help anyone understand. Help and opinions are fine, it's what i look for if i ask something. In fairness probably not the best title to pick.
And no i don't think it's a misconception, when bonsai trees are talked about what is the comparison? If it's "show quality". Bottom line a "pro" or a beginner it's still a matter of opinion and perception. In reality you can take a "trash" tree and still make it a bonsai. Who sets the standards for what is and isn't? I'm sure all can agree it's not bonsai ready, but not sure how needing time for a certain tree equals trash or not.

Did you actually read what I wrote?
For the record, I never said it was trash, I said it wasnt a masterpiece.

The "Everyone is hell bent on show winning trees" IS a misconception. As I stated, I (as well as others) do not advocate a beginner to go out and buy an expensive tree, so no not EVERYONE is hell bent on show stoppers, especially for a beginner or for anyone not interested in that aspect of bonsai. Many of us arent.

The bonsai community sets the standards through bonsai shows and exhibits where awards are given to the best trees by a panel of judges.

Yes you can take a "trash" tree and make a bonsai, even a decent bonsai, but it will probably never be a fantastic tree.

Does that matter? Honestly IMO, no it doesn't. If it makes you happy, then that is what matters.

My point is to be realistic with your expectations with what is in front if you.

I have around 50 trees, most of which would be considered "trash" by many people here. I dont care, I enjoy them and they make me happy.

 

[Jester217300]

As I stated, I (as well as others) do not advocate a beginner to go out and buy an expensive tree, so no not EVERYONE is hell bent on show stoppers, especially for a beginner or for anyone not interested in that aspect of bonsai. Many of us arent.

I lost $3000 in six months.

Start with cheap material.

 

[rockm]

This is an old horse. Let me beat it with the obnoxious rhetoric stick---

Show me all of these people who are "hell bent" on exhibiting. I'd say from what I see here, that majority of folks are hell-bent on NOT showing anything and get their panties in a bunch when anyone whispers the material they're working on well, miiiiiight kiiiinda be a sucky waste of time. "NOOOOOOOOO they scream."How DARE YOU call my tree trash. You must be some kind of elitist bonsai snob for using material that you haven't grown from a wee seedling. If you don't build it from scratch or spin a $15 piece of shit juniper into artistic gold, YOU aren't a true bonsai person. YOU are ruining it for everyone with your $100 trees and your, your, ATTITUDE."

Sheesh, PULEEZE, that's an elitist load of crap in itself.

OK, fine, keep screwing with that $9 red cedar you got from Home Depot, or that bag of magic maple seeds you're going to plant in something, sometime if you can figure out how to stratify them...

FWIW, better stock, leads to better "finished" trees. A hard fact of life. Bitch and moan about it all you want. Won't change it.

 

[Timbo]

Pretty much sums up my point, thanks rock. Last comment about this topic.

 

[Paradox]

Pretty much sums up my point, thanks rock. Last comment about this topic.

Wait, you disagree with my statements but you agree with @rockm?

Anyone else confused besides me?
Granted, I may have spent too much time out in the sun and heat yesterday....

 

[Jester217300]

Wait, you disagree with my statements but you agree with @rockm?

Sarcasm. He/she doesn't agree.

 

[sorce]

better stock

My point is....

Where does the better stock come from?

The people that are making that "better stock", aren't going to be around forever.

They may not be the same people...
But these folks with seedlings and things..
Need to be the ones growing that better stock for tomoro, and the next gens...

It's all in Adair's Phases thread.

Sorce

 

[0soyoung]

... better stock, leads to better "finished" trees

What is 'better stock'?
How does one recognize it?
How does one make it?

 

[petegreg]

I lost $3000 in six months.

Start with cheap material.

Lost or spent?

 

[Adair M]

Amazing how old threads revive... And even transform!

Along with my "phases of bonsai" thread, I suppose there should be a parallel "phases of bonsai artist" thread!

Noob
Beginner
Enthusiastic learner
Seasoned veteran
Master

Something like that.

Somewhere around "enthusiastic learner", each artist chooses a path he wants to follow. The learning gives him some idea of all the ways bonsai can be enjoyed. And it's not the same for everyone. And that's ok.

Some really like Propogation. They love starting seeds, and cuttings. Growing stuff in the ground. Sure they may have some trees farther along, but propagating is the most fun for them.

Others like to treasure hunt! Finding those hidden gems and turning them into something presentable gives them great satisfaction, even if it's never "World Class".

Then there are people who like to take trees "to the next level". They start with something that's got a good start, then they apply their skills and techniques to try to make it into "Best of Show" quality.

And then there are those who want to have the "Best of the Best", are willing to purchase the best material, pay the top artists to style the trees, enter them into the most exclusive shows.

Really, there's nothing wrong with any of these stereotypes. (I'm sure there's more types.). Each is perusing the hobby in a way that satisfies them.

Myself, I guess I'm in the "take it to the next level" crowd. I tend to take bonsai that might be a little neglected and set them on the path to recovery. Or, take advanced stock, and finish out the development and begin the Refinement phase. And yes, I have purchased a couple "finished" trees I believe I have to skills to maintain and improve. I've been doing bonsai 40 years. Most of my trees are at the advanced stage where at certain times of the year, each tree needs a lot of seasonal work. If I have too many trees needing seasonal work at the same time, something will get neglected. So, I limit the number of trees I own. I'm at the point where I'd rather keep a small collection of high quality trees, rather than a large collection of rougher, less developed trees. But, I still do have a few "under development" projects. But, at this point in my bonsai career, I'm having more fun showing my trees and teaching others the skills necessary to make trees. While still improving my own skills by working on advanced trees.

 

[rockm]

What is 'better stock'?
How does one recognize it?
How does one make it?

Jesus, you're making this harder than it is. Relatively a $10 tree is better than a $5 one. A $300 stock tree from someone who knows what they're doing is better than $100 one from the same seller. This isn't rocket science.

And if you don't know the answers yet about to how to recognize it or make it, you're probably not ready to move up to the next step. those questions if you have any sense for bonsai at all, mostly answer themselves along the way