Help identifying this pine.

Grovic

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Hi, I just harvested a couple seedlings from a nearby pine. Does anyone know what kind of pine it is? Any training advise?

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This is the mother:
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Thank you.
 

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Grovic

Mame
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White pine?
Thanks, It does seem like white pines are very common here in Michigan, I'll have to take a closer look at the needles, I read that they grow in groups of 5; also, the description from "textbook of daendrology" says they (the needles) are "slender and flexible" which is the case for my pines.
 

Potawatomi13

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Needles are in 5's upon magnification also cone appears as White pine. Question is which one;)? If not having green/closed cone place dry one in cold water in refrigerator till it closes up. See if can ID closed cone from your source. Maybe E. White pine but cannot be at all sure as have never seen one.
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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Jep, pinus strobus, Eastern white pine.
The giveaway is the branching: if it's smooth, greyish and has very little or no rugged bark, then it's likely strobus.
They're next level bonsai, very few people are successful with them. Single flush and looooooong needles. But they seem forgiving. I should've killed mine two years ago, but it just doesn't want to die.
 

0soyoung

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Single flush and looooooong needles. But they seem forgiving. I should've killed mine two years ago, but it just doesn't want to die.
They don't spontaneously second flush, but they can be treated like a JBP and will produce shorter needles, even very short. They can also be treated like virtually any pine and respond with fascicular back budding. They can be almost limitless fun in this way, but they are the definition of 'impossible as bonsai' = extremely frustrating. Great stuff for learning, if you're into that.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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I agree, eastern white pine, Pinus strobus. (EWP) It is the most common pine in Michigan. Bloomfield Hills is away from the areas where other pines are common. The 2 other common Michigan pines are 2 needles in a bundle, the Jack pine Pinus banksiana, and the Red pine, Pinus resinosa.

Pinus strobus is a difficult pine to turn into bonsai. It is easy to grow. They will frustrate you as bonsai, because they do not refine the way other species of pine will. They always remain awkward, with foliage that never tightens up.

You are in Michigan, my friend 0soyoung is on an island in Puget Sound. Do not follow his advice regarding EWP. His climate allows his eastern white pines to double flush. In Michigan's more severe climate EWP will always be a single flush pine.
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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They don't spontaneously second flush, but they can be treated like a JBP and will produce shorter needles, even very short. They can also be treated like virtually any pine and respond with fascicular back budding. They can be almost limitless fun in this way, but they are the definition of 'impossible as bonsai' = extremely frustrating. Great stuff for learning, if you're into that.
Mine didn't produce smaller needles, they were bigger than before! Never had a second flush either when treating them as a JBP.

Last year I cut the buds in winter, this reduced the 'neck' of the candle quite some! But the first flush occurred in june, pretty late, just two months of summer left. So now I'm trying to do a trial and error on it, just see what happens. Other people have written down their techniques but those don't seem to work on mine. I did a radical needle cut, found that advice on something Nigel Saunders posted a couple years ago (it linked to an article that said needle cutting doesn't produce brown tips due to the bleeding character of EWP, they were wrong!).
I also removed all the buds this spring and we'll see.
 

0soyoung

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ou are in Michigan, my friend 0soyoung is on an island in Puget Sound. Do not follow his advice regarding EWP. His climate allows his eastern white pines to double flush. In Michigan's more severe climate EWP will always be a single flush pine.
It rarely ever gets above 70F here. It is like coastal/upper-penninsula Michigan during the summer, maybe even cooler. My growing season is likely longer, though.
 

Grovic

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I agree, eastern white pine, Pinus strobus. (EWP) It is the most common pine in Michigan. Bloomfield Hills is away from the areas where other pines are common. The 2 other common Michigan pines are 2 needles in a bundle, the Jack pine Pinus banksiana, and the Red pine, Pinus resinosa.

Pinus strobus is a difficult pine to turn into bonsai. It is easy to grow. They will frustrate you as bonsai, because they do not refine the way other species of pine will. They always remain awkward, with foliage that never tightens up.

You are in Michigan, my friend 0soyoung is on an island in Puget Sound. Do not follow his advice regarding EWP. His climate allows his eastern white pines to double flush. In Michigan's more severe climate EWP will always be a single flush pine.
I guess that the common advise "look at what grows around in your area" does not apply in this case. I love the bark of red pines in nature, but I read somewhere that they don't make good bonsai either. I guess I'll give up on the strobus since the space I have available for bonsai is small. Any suggestions for a pine that will do good in this area?
 

Paradox

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It rarely ever gets above 70F here. It is like coastal/upper-penninsula Michigan during the summer, maybe even cooler. My growing season is likely longer, though.

Your winters are much milder too. Michigan probably gets warmer in the summer as well.
I know you have the best of intentions, but what can be done to a tree in Puget Sound does not necessarily translate to Michigan.
Likewise, what I some people can do to certain trees in Texas or Florida does not apply here.

People need to be aware of the climate in their area and realize that things do not always apply to other places.
 

0soyoung

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Mine didn't produce smaller needles, they were bigger than before! Never had a second flush either when treating them as a JBP.
IMG_20200404_142456185.jpg IMG_20200404_142512903.jpg IMG_20200404_142549343.jpg
Last year I cut the buds in winter, this reduced the 'neck' of the candle quite some! But the first flush occurred in june, pretty late, just two months of summer left. So now I'm trying to do a trial and error on it, just see what happens.
Tell me more = is 'cutting the buds off in winter' anything more than just that?
In my thinking, the summer solstice marks the beginning of summer = June21-ish and it runs to the equinox on Sep21-ish. Winter doesn't start until Dec21-ish despite how it feels and etc.
I also removed all the buds this spring and we'll see.
This, I have read, is a standard technique of EWP Christmas tree growers. IIRC, the paper said this is done "as late as April as far south as N. Carolina .. " I just do it when the buds are fleshy light green and only the needle scales are apparent. It is around the first of May for me and it produces fasicular back budding. Partial breaking or pinching at that time affects the tree similarly here.
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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Tell me more = is 'cutting the buds off in winter' anything more than just that?
Well, I mean the neck of the candles/shoots originating from the buds that formed over spring and flushed in summer. Those were compacted by a bunch! But the needles were still 4 inches or so.
With our warm winters lately - we only had a few frosts last week and that was it, it's 17C today - there's photosynthetic activity up until january or so.

That's a great reduction you're showing here! Did you do any feeding adjustments on top of manual techniques?
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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It rarely ever gets above 70F here. It is like coastal/upper-penninsula Michigan during the summer, maybe even cooler. My growing season is likely longer, though.

Your growing season is nearly double the growing season in Michigan. In Michigan, we have a 95 to 115 day growing season, between last and first frosts, I wager you have 200 or more days between first and last frost, this is a significant difference and probably accounts for our observed differences in behavior of many pines. An additional 100 days of growth is a huge difference.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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For Bloomfield Hills Michigan, the native pine I recommend is the Jack pine, Pinus banksiana. I have been finding them reasonably good for bonsai. Treat them using techniques and timing recommended for scots pine, Pinus sylvestris or mugo, Pinus mugo. Jack pine is a full sun requiring pine. They do need a nearly full day of direct sun. Given that, needles seem to reduce well and they seem to grow and back bud reasonably well. I have 2 grafted named cultivars and several "normal type" seedlings. I think they are great. They are difficult to collect, but once in a nursery pot for 2 years, they seem just as hardy and easy to work with as any mugo of scots pine. Some don't like the twisted needles of some of the P. banksiana, but they otherwise make a nice bonsai. Jack pine is very, very winter hardy.

Red pine, Pinus resinosa, is an absolute, full sun requiring pine. They are prone to drop any branches that get shaded. If your outdoor growing bench is against a building or fence, the side of the tree that is against the structure that blocks the sun from above, the branches on that side of the tree are prone to die and then drop. In theory they could be okay for bonsai, they are related to Pinus nigra of Europe, which is used in Europe for bonsai. I think if you can set them in the middle of the yard, with unobstructed full sun, they might work as bonsai. If I tried one, I would go for a larger scale bonsai, between 3 feet and 4 feet tall or wide. The larger size would minimize the fact that they have long needles and moderately coarse branching. They are not common, because the few who tried them, did not have much luck. So I agree, for a beginner they are not a good choice.

Non-native pines that work well in your area would include: Scots pine, Pinus sylvestris, probably one of the best, can have nice "blue color", that some people really like. Needles are straight, and reduce well as ramification increases.

Mugo, Pinus mugo, is a local favorite. Vance Wood is within 50 miles of your location, and has worked with mugo for probably 50 years, proving that mugo pines from nursery stock do make wonderful bonsai. Mugo are readily available and can be cheap to pick up. I recommend getting several. The down side of mugo is they are slow to transition from nursery stock to bonsai. You are looking at a minimum of 5 years, to 10 years to get the transition to a single trunk line made. But that is about their only negative. I like mugo. Super winter hardy

Lodgepole pine, Pinus contorta var latifolia, (Note: the Shore pine race of P. contorta var contorta is not as winter hardy, be certain it is the Lodgepole pine, the Rocky Mountain race of P. contorta that you obtain) The Lodgepole is related to the Jack pine, so in many ways behaves similarly. Winter hardy

Pitch Pine, Pinus rigida is an excellent pine, noted for back budding. (note in Michigan, pitch pine will be best treated as a single flush pine, our summers are too short to take advantage of its ability to double flush.) It is winter hardy, though a protected spot in the yard is appropriate. Zone 6a is near their cold limit. Maybe zone 5a in the ground, but in a pot zone 6a is about as cold as you want to go.

Japanese black pine - Pinus thunbergii - this pine is not quite hardy in Michigan. It is the archetypical pine for bonsai, but if you do not have a good set up to protect it in winter, it is not a good choice. Best for zone 7 and warmer, even though in the ground they are good in zone 6, in a pot in zone 6 you will loose them one winter out of 5 will be cold enough to kill them.

Pinus parviflora - Japanese white pine - JWP- these grow well in Michigan. Or at least reasonably well. They are a "not for beginners" pine, there is a lot to learn about them. Most JWP are grafted. The grafting understock matters. If grafted onto Japanese black pine, they will NOT be winter hardy. If grafted on Scots pine, or Eastern white pine, they WILL BE winter hardy. So it takes some investigation to source a good JWP. You can get air layers of 2 varieties "Zuisho' and 'Kokonoe', these will be hardy on their own roots. JWP seedlings are all over the map. Many seedling JWP will have unattractive yellowish foliage and often have twisting needles. Occasionally a seedling will have the nice "blue" foliage that we like and short, straight needles. If you go with seedlings, buy seed, and start your own. Maybe around 5 %, will have the nice foliage. You need to raise the seedlings to the 3 to 5 year age to get an idea what the mature foliage will look like. So you can see why most of us source grafted plants.

Pinus flexilis - Limber pine - seems to do well in Michigan. Similar to JWP but with longer needles.

Ponderosa pines - Pinus ponderosa - they have long needles, but if you spend the money to get an old, collected tree, the gnarly bark on the old trunks is outstanding. They are very winter hardy.
my favorite source is


There are more pines. But this list should get you started. I really suggest Jack pine for native, and Scots, and mugo for non native pines.
 
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