Help needed with two saplings

Maheshbiyer

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Dear Friends,

I have recently received two Saplings that I intend to turn into bonsai trees in due course. One is a Japanese Maple and the other is a Baobab. I will attach their pictures along with this. My query is, how do I start my bonsai journey with these plants. Do I begin to immediately prune them? If yes, how do you suggest I go about it?

Best regards
 

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LooselyWired

Sapling
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It is premature to worry about pruning, at this point. Let them grow a bit. How are you keeping your plants right now? If you update your profile, and list a geographical location, it will allow people to answer your questions more specifically based upon your climate. Welcome to the forum.
 

Shibui

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There are many ways to create bonsai. 2 basic methods are:
1: grow fast - allow the tree to grow as much as possible until the trunk is the desired thickness than chop hard an allow any new shoots to form the branches and new trunk/ canopy.
2; develop slow - prune regularly to minimize cuts and scars. This method usually produces superior bonsai but usually takes 10-30 years

Many people will use a combination of the above and there are other refinements to even further complicate the issue.

In the short term there is no need to hasten into anything but potting them up and learning to keep them alive.
You have not given any location in your profile so we can't give any specific care hints based on your climate. suffice to say that baobab is not an easy species to even keep alive. JM can also have some problems so just keeping them alive is your initial priority.
 

Maheshbiyer

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Thank you for your prompt and informative reply Shibui. To answer your query, I live in India. Warm weather most of the year, rains and then not so cold winter. I do have a few questions.
1. Is there a thumb rule as to how tall must i let the plants grow before chopping off the top?
2. Is there a guide or reading material for growing bonsai from Saplings that I can get my hands on?

Best regards
There are many ways to create bonsai. 2 basic methods are:
1: grow fast - allow the tree to grow as much as possible until the trunk is the desired thickness than chop hard an allow any new shoots to form the branches and new trunk/ canopy.
2; develop slow - prune regularly to minimize cuts and scars. This method usually produces superior bonsai but usually takes 10-30 years

Many people will use a combination of the above and there are other refinements to even further complicate the issue.

In the short term there is no need to hasten into anything but potting them up and learning to keep them alive.
You have not given any location in your profile so we can't give any specific care hints based on your climate. suffice to say that baobab is not an easy species to even keep alive. JM can also have some problems so just keeping them alive is your initial priority.
 

Maheshbiyer

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Thank you for your quick response LooselyWired. I will take your advice and let the plants grow. But could you tell me how long? Is there a particular acceptable height or dimension that I have to keep in mind before pruning? I live in India. Summers are warm, followed my rains and not so cold winter.

Best regards
It is premature to worry about pruning, at this point. Let them grow a bit. How are you keeping your plants right now? If you update your profile, and list a geographical location, it will allow people to answer your questions more specifically based upon your climate. Welcome to the forum
 

Lumaca

Yamadori
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Jakarta, the Equator
Thank you for your prompt and informative reply Shibui. To answer your query, I live in India. Warm weather most of the year, rains and then not so cold winter. I do have a few questions.
1. Is there a thumb rule as to how tall must i let the plants grow before chopping off the top?
2. Is there a guide or reading material for growing bonsai from Saplings that I can get my hands on?

Best regards

Are you sure maple will live without winter? I've done my research on maples but found that they will likely die in the tropics (where I am also located).

Also, I think what @Shibui meant by growing freely is to NOT do ANY pruning until the trunk is thick enough. The height doesn't matter as much as the thickness.
 

Maheshbiyer

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Are you sure maple will live without winter? I've done my research on maples but found that they will likely die in the tropics (where I am also located).

Also, I think what @Shibui meant by growing freely is to NOT do ANY pruning until the trunk is thick enough. The height doesn't matter as much as the thickness.
Thank you Lumaca. I guess I will wait till the trunk gets thicker. I'm hoping both of them survive. I'll keep the maple outside esp during winter and take care of them the best I can.

Regards
 

HorseloverFat

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Good day, wanderer! Torches to the sky and nocturnal drum circles penetrate the night air in honor of your arrival, here, in the adjoining meadows of the Tiny Forest. The Woody Dwarves sensed your coming.. several days down the trail.

If you’d like to go ahead and update your profile to reflect your location, it can be vague, (Mine just says NorthEastern Wisconsin) to reflect your climate specifics, the information you receive will be pertinent to YOUR “situation”

In example... it was below 0 degreed C when I woke up this morning... If YOU are living in (let’s say) Johannesburg.. YOUR trees (In their spring) will require MUCH different care than Mine (in their Autumn)

Nice seedlings! Listen to the wise advice already “laid out” here..

Pleasure to make your acquaintancez
 

LittleDingus

Shohin
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Dear Friends,

I have recently received two Saplings that I intend to turn into bonsai trees in due course. One is a Japanese Maple and the other is a Baobab. I will attach their pictures along with this. My query is, how do I start my bonsai journey with these plants. Do I begin to immediately prune them? If yes, how do you suggest I go about it?

Best regards
That's a mighty small root ball for a baobab. The tuber must be cut? I looks like possibly a young digitata though the leaves don't look quite right in the picture. Maybe because it's not getting enough light? They look overly large to me.

Here's one of my digitata when it was ~1 year old.

20190817_171522.jpg

Notice the large tuber. It looks like yours must have been cut way back to fit into a bag the size of your fist. Cutting back like that shouldn't hurt the plant. I cut the bottom 1/3 off mine last winter. It's just fine now. But the tuber is an important water storage organ for baobabs. If you leave it, you will get more robust growth and the trunk will thicken much quicker. Some people will even raise the tuber out of the soil to be part of the trunk since the tuber thickens even faster.

Here are leaves from one of my digitata as it is today.

20201019_120915.jpg20201019_120925.jpg

Yours look slightly serrated and much larger. I've never seen serrated edges on my digitata. There can be a lot of variation when young...or perhaps yours is some species other than digitata? Or it could be the tree is not getting enough light and making much larger leaves to compensate?

For comparison, here are leaf samples from my current trees

20200830_175255.jpg

They two right most ones are both digitata so you can see the variation. Young trees/new season growth can tend to be simple leaf otherwise baobabs are all compound leafs (digitata - digits on a hand).

Last year I had 7 of the 8 species growing from seed. 3 didn't survive the winter. Totally my fault. I foolishly let them get too dry. Turns out that's possible even during their dormancy...at least while they are still young. The 3 that didn't wake up had obvious wrinkling on the branches and the trunks were very brittle.

Other than that mistake which was totally my fault, I've found baobabs easy to grow. Tricky to germinate! But easy to care for. Mine have been moved inside and are starting to enter dormancy now.

20201019_115558.jpg

The tallest one is just over a meter. During their active growing season, they get full sun from dawn til ~3PM. They are shaded by the house for the hottest part
of the day. Temps can get as high as 38C here but are more normally closer to 30C. They get watered every day but they never sit in a puddle. Sitting in water will kill them quick. They get root rot easily. They can take a lot of water while actively growing as long as the roots don't stay too damp. I grow mine in diatomaceous earth in permeable grow bags. Water drains really well plus the grow bags are porous to air so the soil does tend to dry out during the day.

A week ago, I moved them into a bright window in the basement. Once nights start dipping near 15C, I bring them inside. The basement will stay about 15C at night but that's low enough to trigger dormancy. Probably they'll hold onto their leaves for a while yet. Last winter they didn't go completely leafless until about Christmas. Last year I didn't water at all over the winter. This year, I'll be a little less extreme and water them once a week or so...but just enough to keep the roots from being too dry for too long.

Good luck with yours! I'm hoping to see pictures as it grows :) I'm curious to watch and compare one growing in your more favorable environment compared to how mine are doing well outside their native climate!
 

Maheshbiyer

Seedling
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Dehradun, India
Thank you so much for your reply @LittleDingus. Yes, you are right, the root ball is very small. Perhaps, this is because the plant is only a few months old. Could you give me any advice with regards to the potting soil to be used and how to thicken the trunk faster.

Regards
That's a mighty small root ball for a baobab. The tuber must be cut? I looks like possibly a young digitata though the leaves don't look quite right in the picture. Maybe because it's not getting enough light? They look overly large to me.

Here's one of my digitata when it was ~1 year old.

View attachment 335455

Notice the large tuber. It looks like yours must have been cut way back to fit into a bag the size of your fist. Cutting back like that shouldn't hurt the plant. I cut the bottom 1/3 off mine last winter. It's just fine now. But the tuber is an important water storage organ for baobabs. If you leave it, you will get more robust growth and the trunk will thicken much quicker. Some people will even raise the tuber out of the soil to be part of the trunk since the tuber thickens even faster.

Here are leaves from one of my digitata as it is today.

View attachment 335456View attachment 335457

Yours look slightly serrated and much larger. I've never seen serrated edges on my digitata. There can be a lot of variation when young...or perhaps yours is some species other than digitata? Or it could be the tree is not getting enough light and making much larger leaves to compensate?

For comparison, here are leaf samples from my current trees

View attachment 335458

They two right most ones are both digitata so you can see the variation. Young trees/new season growth can tend to be simple leaf otherwise baobabs are all compound leafs (digitata - digits on a hand).

Last year I had 7 of the 8 species growing from seed. 3 didn't survive the winter. Totally my fault. I foolishly let them get too dry. Turns out that's possible even during their dormancy...at least while they are still young. The 3 that didn't wake up had obvious wrinkling on the branches and the trunks were very brittle.

Other than that mistake which was totally my fault, I've found baobabs easy to grow. Tricky to germinate! But easy to care for. Mine have been moved inside and are starting to enter dormancy now.

View attachment 335448

The tallest one is just over a meter. During their active growing season, they get full sun from dawn til ~3PM. They are shaded by the house for the hottest part
of the day. Temps can get as high as 38C here but are more normally closer to 30C. They get watered every day but they never sit in a puddle. Sitting in water will kill them quick. They get root rot easily. They can take a lot of water while actively growing as long as the roots don't stay too damp. I grow mine in diatomaceous earth in permeable grow bags. Water drains really well plus the grow bags are porous to air so the soil does tend to dry out during the day.

A week ago, I moved them into a bright window in the basement. Once nights start dipping near 15C, I bring them inside. The basement will stay about 15C at night but that's low enough to trigger dormancy. Probably they'll hold onto their leaves for a while yet. Last winter they didn't go completely leafless until about Christmas. Last year I didn't water at all over the winter. This year, I'll be a little less extreme and water them once a week or so...but just enough to keep the roots from being too dry for too long.

Good luck with yours! I'm hoping to see pictures as it grows :) I'm curious to watch and compare one growing in your more favorable environment compared to how mine are doing well outside their native climate!
So
 

Maheshbiyer

Seedling
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Welcome to Crazy!

You see that colander there? Buy 2 more and plant them in it!

Sorce
Thank you @sorce. I think I'll do just that
It is premature to worry about pruning, at this point. Let them grow a bit. How are you keeping your plants right now? If you update your profile, and list a geographical location, it will allow people to answer your questions more specifically based upon your climate. Welcome to the forum.
How do I update my geographical location?
 

Maheshbiyer

Seedling
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Dehradun, India
He
Good day, wanderer! Torches to the sky and nocturnal drum circles penetrate the night air in honor of your arrival, here, in the adjoining meadows of the Tiny Forest. The Woody Dwarves sensed your coming.. several days down the trail.

If you’d like to go ahead and update your profile to reflect your location, it can be vague, (Mine just says NorthEastern Wisconsin) to reflect your climate specifics, the information you receive will be pertinent to YOUR “situation”

In example... it was below 0 degreed C when I woke up this morning... If YOU are living in (let’s say) Johannesburg.. YOUR trees (In their spring) will require MUCH different care than Mine (in their Autumn)

Nice seedlings! Listen to the wise advice already “laid out” here..

Pleasure to make your acquaintancez
Hello @HorseloverFat. Pleased to meet you too. I'm just trying to figure out how to update my geo location on this site. I'm from India. The Summers are warm followed by rains and not so cold winter.
 

LittleDingus

Shohin
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Kansas City, MO
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Thank you so much for your reply @LittleDingus. Yes, you are right, the root ball is very small. Perhaps, this is because the plant is only a few months old. Could you give me any advice with regards to the potting soil to be used and how to thicken the trunk faster.

Regards

So

@Maheshbiyer, do you know the species name of your baobab? Where did you get it from?

One of the first things baobabs invest in is a storage root. It's critical for them be able to store enough water to survive their first drought. Mine have all been grown from seed. By the time the cotyledons have opened, the tap root is already quite long. Here is a picture of one of mine after ~3 months growth:

20201020_114127.jpg

You can see that already the tap root is quite bulbous.

Do you happen to take a picture of the roots? There should be an existing tap root or evidence that one has been cut. It's quite possible the one on yours has been cut or has been constrained to a small container. Either way, it should be obvious. There should either be a wound where the root was cut or the root will be twisted and bulbous because it was constrained and had nowhere to go.

If there isn't some evidence of a storage root, I'd question whether it is a true adansonia.

As far as what to do with it...that partly depends on if it is a true adansonia or not. If it's not a true adansonia, my experience with them is not likely to help you!

Assuming it IS an adansonia, I don't like to tell people what to do. It's your tree...not mine ;) What I can do is tell you what I have done with mine, explain why, and show the results...which is what my previous post was attempting to do.

At the risk of repeating:

My adansonia digitata (what yours is most likely to be if it is an adansonia) is currently growing in a 3 gallon grow bag. I use these


I can usually get them for under $3 per bag and they last me 5 years or more. Many people on this site will use plastic colanders. I prefer the bags myself, but the principal is the same: when the roots hit the air boundary, they don't turn and continue to grow like they would in a traditional pot. Instead, the tips naturally dry up and die. The root then branches further back. Over time this leads to lots of fine "feeder" roots that help the tree absorb water and nutrients. The bags aren't as effective as colanders. I do get some fine roots that do weave into the bag itself if I keep the soil too wet. But it's plenty effective for my use and they last me longer.

I have my doubts that that is necessary with adansonia and the way they grow roots, but it doesn't hurt. At the very least, I can water them constantly and the porous bag allows the soil to drain immediately. The bags dry out enough during the day to keep root rot from being an issue. I water my babs every day...sometimes twice a day...during their growing season without worry about rot issues. Part of that is that the bags dry out quicker than posts. Part of that is the soil I use doesn't get muddy.

The "soil" I have mine in I buy at a local auto parts store. It's known in the US as NAPA 8822. It's used to soak up oil spills of all things :)

What it really is is diatomaceous earth:


There are many uses for DE. Finely powedered DE is sometimes used as a food additive. Do not use the food grade stuff! It's too fine. Powedered DE is also used as an insect/slug barrier. Sometimes even as an insecticide. The fine powder is very sharp and hard. It can get between the segments of insects and cause wounds that will dry the insect out and kill it. Ants won't cross it. Slugs won't either. The power is also used as a soil additive in the garden for various reasons beyond insect prevention. Again, do not use the powered stuff!

What I use comes in 1-2mm pebbles. I believe DE is sold in some European countries as kitty litter. I use it because it is cheap and easy to source here. It lasts many years...I often wash and reuse it after a repot. It's not organic so I don't tend to get fungus gnat infestations when I move things inside for the winter. The downside is there are no usable nutrients...I do need to fertilize regularly.

I started most of my adansonia seedlings in coconut coif. They actually grew in coconut coif for most of their first year. They did seem to grow much faster in the coif but the coif was much harder to control the moisture of. It breaks down pretty fast and sometimes felt muddy and took longer than I would like to dry out. I started to worry about root rot issues after just 6 months in coif so I moved them to DE instead. I wasn't terribly happy with the rate of growth this season in the DE compared to last where most of the growth was in the early part of the season when they were in coconut coif. I may make some adjustments next season towards something a little more moisture retaining.

The results are as pictured:

20201020_124955.jpg20201020_124936.jpg20201020_124943.jpg

All 3 are adansonia digitata. All 3 trees are 2 years from seed. They are just over 1m tall. Trunks at the base are just shy of 3cm. The 2 on the right were topped at the end of last season to try and force some back budding...which they did do.

So again, that's what I have done. You are in a much different climate than mine. My adansonia cannot survive outside year round here. We'll be dropping below 0C at night any day now. Temps as low as -20C are not out of the question here. Even in the summer, when our temps can get to above 35C, our humidity is often 80%. All I can do is try things and see what works for me.

Lots of words...sorry! But hopefully I've explained the reasoning behind my decisions enough that you can adjust what I've done to your climate.
 

Maheshbiyer

Seedling
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Location
Dehradun, India
@Maheshbiyer, do you know the species name of your baobab? Where did you get it from?

One of the first things baobabs invest in is a storage root. It's critical for them be able to store enough water to survive their first drought. Mine have all been grown from seed. By the time the cotyledons have opened, the tap root is already quite long. Here is a picture of one of mine after ~3 months growth:

View attachment 335638

You can see that already the tap root is quite bulbous.

Do you happen to take a picture of the roots? There should be an existing tap root or evidence that one has been cut. It's quite possible the one on yours has been cut or has been constrained to a small container. Either way, it should be obvious. There should either be a wound where the root was cut or the root will be twisted and bulbous because it was constrained and had nowhere to go.

If there isn't some evidence of a storage root, I'd question whether it is a true adansonia.

As far as what to do with it...that partly depends on if it is a true adansonia or not. If it's not a true adansonia, my experience with them is not likely to help you!

Assuming it IS an adansonia, I don't like to tell people what to do. It's your tree...not mine ;) What I can do is tell you what I have done with mine, explain why, and show the results...which is what my previous post was attempting to do.

At the risk of repeating:

My adansonia digitata (what yours is most likely to be if it is an adansonia) is currently growing in a 3 gallon grow bag. I use these


I can usually get them for under $3 per bag and they last me 5 years or more. Many people on this site will use plastic colanders. I prefer the bags myself, but the principal is the same: when the roots hit the air boundary, they don't turn and continue to grow like they would in a traditional pot. Instead, the tips naturally dry up and die. The root then branches further back. Over time this leads to lots of fine "feeder" roots that help the tree absorb water and nutrients. The bags aren't as effective as colanders. I do get some fine roots that do weave into the bag itself if I keep the soil too wet. But it's plenty effective for my use and they last me longer.

I have my doubts that that is necessary with adansonia and the way they grow roots, but it doesn't hurt. At the very least, I can water them constantly and the porous bag allows the soil to drain immediately. The bags dry out enough during the day to keep root rot from being an issue. I water my babs every day...sometimes twice a day...during their growing season without worry about rot issues. Part of that is that the bags dry out quicker than posts. Part of that is the soil I use doesn't get muddy.

The "soil" I have mine in I buy at a local auto parts store. It's known in the US as NAPA 8822. It's used to soak up oil spills of all things :)

What it really is is diatomaceous earth:


There are many uses for DE. Finely powedered DE is sometimes used as a food additive. Do not use the food grade stuff! It's too fine. Powedered DE is also used as an insect/slug barrier. Sometimes even as an insecticide. The fine powder is very sharp and hard. It can get between the segments of insects and cause wounds that will dry the insect out and kill it. Ants won't cross it. Slugs won't either. The power is also used as a soil additive in the garden for various reasons beyond insect prevention. Again, do not use the powered stuff!

What I use comes in 1-2mm pebbles. I believe DE is sold in some European countries as kitty litter. I use it because it is cheap and easy to source here. It lasts many years...I often wash and reuse it after a repot. It's not organic so I don't tend to get fungus gnat infestations when I move things inside for the winter. The downside is there are no usable nutrients...I do need to fertilize regularly.

I started most of my adansonia seedlings in coconut coif. They actually grew in coconut coif for most of their first year. They did seem to grow much faster in the coif but the coif was much harder to control the moisture of. It breaks down pretty fast and sometimes felt muddy and took longer than I would like to dry out. I started to worry about root rot issues after just 6 months in coif so I moved them to DE instead. I wasn't terribly happy with the rate of growth this season in the DE compared to last where most of the growth was in the early part of the season when they were in coconut coif. I may make some adjustments next season towards something a little more moisture retaining.

The results are as pictured:

View attachment 335651View attachment 335650View attachment 335649

All 3 are adansonia digitata. All 3 trees are 2 years from seed. They are just over 1m tall. Trunks at the base are just shy of 3cm. The 2 on the right were topped at the end of last season to try and force some back budding...which they did do.

So again, that's what I have done. You are in a much different climate than mine. My adansonia cannot survive outside year round here. We'll be dropping below 0C at night any day now. Temps as low as -20C are not out of the question here. Even in the summer, when our temps can get to above 35C, our humidity is often 80%. All I can do is try things and see what works for me.

Lots of words...sorry! But hopefully I've explained the reasoning behind my decisions enough that you can adjust what I've done to your climate.
Thank you so much for all that priceless information sir. It means a lot to me, especially since it comes out of personal experience. To answer your question, I think my plant is an adansonia perrieri. Or atleast that's what Google lens thinks. I have attached the root's picture with this reply. To a large extent it resembles your baobab's root. Mine too is only a few months old and I bought it from a nursary. I think I'll take your advice and plant it in a grow bag. Will keep updating about the progress it makes. Thank you once again.
RegardsIMG-20201019-WA0019.jpgIMG-20201019-WA0020.jpg
 

LittleDingus

Shohin
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Thank you so much for all that priceless information sir. It means a lot to me, especially since it comes out of personal experience. To answer your question, I think my plant is an adansonia perrieri. Or atleast that's what Google lens thinks. I have attached the root's picture with this reply. To a large extent it resembles your baobab's root. Mine too is only a few months old and I bought it from a nursary. I think I'll take your advice and plant it in a grow bag. Will keep updating about the progress it makes. Thank you once again.
RegardsView attachment 335735View attachment 335739

That does, indeed, look like a baobab root :)

My perrieri is one that didn't survive this past winter :( I put too much faith in everything I read that said not a drop of water during dormancy to prevent root rot. I do have succulents that winter fine without water all winter. Aparently young adansonia in dry heated houses can't make it :(

All my adansonia showed signs of being too dry this spring. The perriere trunk and root were very wrinkled. The branches looked dry and were hollow. I know better and I should have been watching them more carefully, but didn't.

I was really sad to lose the perriri too. Its trunk was thickening up about twice as fast as any of the others! It did have the largest leaves...not so good for bonsai. Overall, it was my favorite of the 7 species I had though. Here it is at about 1 year. It was growing in a 2l soda bottle in coconut coif at the time.

20190803_092856.jpg20190803_092947.jpg20190817_120940.jpg

This is from the day I moved them into DE. Looking back...perrieri did have the smallest tap root...but much more fine roots...compared to the others.

I do still have seed for the 3 species I lost. I want to get the ones I have through another winter then I'll try the ones I lost again.

I am trying to get a specimen of all 8 species. Suarezensis has been impossibly for me to germinate and is the hardest seed to find. I haven't been able to find a trustworthy source that has them in almost 2 years now :( I started with only 8 seeds but am down to just 2. None of the previous 6 attempts showed any signs of germinating. They just rotted :(

Good luck with yours! If you do a forum search, there are a few others on the forum growing these. None growing specifically perrieri that I'm aware of but my experience thus far is they can all be treated about the same. I look forward to learning from your progress!
 

Maheshbiyer

Seedling
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Dehradun, India
That does, indeed, look like a baobab root :)

My perrieri is one that didn't survive this past winter :( I put too much faith in everything I read that said not a drop of water during dormancy to prevent root rot. I do have succulents that winter fine without water all winter. Aparently young adansonia in dry heated houses can't make it :(

All my adansonia showed signs of being too dry this spring. The perriere trunk and root were very wrinkled. The branches looked dry and were hollow. I know better and I should have been watching them more carefully, but didn't.

I was really sad to lose the perriri too. Its trunk was thickening up about twice as fast as any of the others! It did have the largest leaves...not so good for bonsai. Overall, it was my favorite of the 7 species I had though. Here it is at about 1 year. It was growing in a 2l soda bottle in coconut coif at the time.

View attachment 335772View attachment 335771View attachment 335773

This is from the day I moved them into DE. Looking back...perrieri did have the smallest tap root...but much more fine roots...compared to the others.

I do still have seed for the 3 species I lost. I want to get the ones I have through another winter then I'll try the ones I lost again.

I am trying to get a specimen of all 8 species. Suarezensis has been impossibly for me to germinate and is the hardest seed to find. I haven't been able to find a trustworthy source that has them in almost 2 years now :( I started with only 8 seeds but am down to just 2. None of the previous 6 attempts showed any signs of germinating. They just rotted :(

Good luck with yours! If you do a forum search, there are a few others on the forum growing these. None growing specifically perrieri that I'm aware of but my experience thus far is they can all be treated about the same. I look forward to learning from your progress!
Thank you for that information @LittleDingus. My Baobab is drooping and some leaves have shriveled. I don't know what is wrong. What do you suggest I do? I'm terribly worried. The soil does have water. I have attached pics. It is about to get cold here and I keep the Baobab inside at night and outside in the sun during day.

RegardsIMG-20201021-WA0019.jpegIMG-20201021-WA0015.jpeg
 

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