Interesting discussion

[rockm]

Here on Japan/US perceptions of bonsai here in the US:
http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/bonsai-f1/2008-us-national-exhibition-redux-t1693.htm

I post it here because I have had alot of difficulty logging into IBC for some reason.

 

[greerhw]

Here on Japan/US perceptions of bonsai here in the US:
http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/bonsai-f1/2008-us-national-exhibition-redux-t1693.htm

I post it here because I have had alot of difficulty logging into IBC for some reason.

I doubt there is much in the way of Japanese yamadori left to harvest, so most everything is nursury grown or grafted. The wealth of American yamadori species is abundant and make bonsai as good as any Japanese trees. Most of the conifers lend themselves to the Japanese style, while the California junipers are second to none, even my beloved Itowgawas. We will NEVER match the Japanese in koi breeding, but we are certainly making headways in bonsai.

keep it green,
Harry

 

[Smoke]

I doubt there is much in the way of Japanese yamadori left to harvest, so most everything is nursury grown or grafted. The wealth of American yamadori species is abundant and make bonsai as good as any Japanese trees. Most of the conifers lend themselves to the Japanese style, while the California junipers are second to none, even my beloved Itowgawas. We will NEVER match the Japanese in koi breeding, but we are certainly making headways in bonsai.

keep it green,
Harry

Why could we NEVER match the Japanese in Koi breeding? Breeding is just a matter of having the best parent stock. Many people also say we can't match the stones (Suiseki) found in Japan either. Thats just crap. We have plenty of stones that rival anything found in Japan. It just takes people getting off their duff and finding them.

 

[greerhw]

Why could we NEVER match the Japanese in Koi breeding? Breeding is just a matter of having the best parent stock. Many people also say we can't match the stones (Suiseki) found in Japan either. Thats just crap. We have plenty of stones that rival anything found in Japan. It just takes people getting off their duff and finding them.

The Japanese have been breeding koi for generations, a koi will lay a 100,000 eggs, breeders look at each and every one of them as fry (1/4" long) that is when they start the culling process, the ones that make it through the first round will be left to grow a little longer, then another culling, and so on and so forth. Out of that 100,000 there may be 15 good koi and if they,re lucky, one that is world class, akin to winning the lottery. I know several American breeders and they raise decent pond koi, but not show champions and never will, at least during my liferime, ask anyone seriously keeping high end koi.
I'm not truly into Suiseki, I collect Chinese viewing stones, and I have never seen anything in America that match some of my stones for abstract beauty. Not for everyone, but I prefer them. My favorite stone.

http://www.spirit-stones.com/

keep it green,
Harry

 

[rockm]

I find the "We can't do it as well as the Japanese" arguments in bonsai and koi and other areas simple bunk.

Of course we can. It's a matter of will though. We probably won't ever have the quality koi the Japanese have simply because there is no big market for $100,000 fish here, probably never will be. No reason to sort through all the bad fishies to find the good ones. Who wants to do that if they really don't have to?

The thought that only the Japanese can make "true" bonsai is another big mystical load of crappola. Fortunately, that idea is dieing off as it becomes harder to ignore the fact the Japanese are no longer the sole proprietors of really great bonsai.

The line of thinking that the Japanese think American bonsai is vastly inferior to European and Japanese bonsai is pretty much a given in Japan. Having worked for a Japanese company I can say, the Japanese think Americans, in general, are a bunch of coddled uncultured sissies. They gather this not from actually having visited here, or having any real understanding of our culture, but from watching ads, movies and other media. It's their stereotype of us. Their stereotype of Europe is stuck somewhere in the 18th century, thinking the Continent is the seat of refined culture and it is vastly more capable of "understanding" art than we backward rural bumpkins in the states are.

 

[Smoke]

The Japanese have been breeding koi for generations, a koi will lay a 100,000 eggs, breeders look at each and every one of them as fry (1/4" long) that is when they start the culling process, the ones that make it through the first round will be left to grow a little longer, then another culling, and so on and so forth. Out of that 100,000 there may be 15 good koi and if they,re lucky, one that is world class, akin to winning the lottery. I know several American breeders and they raise decent pond koi, but not show champions and never will, at least during my liferime, ask anyone seriously keeping high end koi.
I'm not truly into Suiseki, I collect Chinese viewing stones, and I have never seen anything in America that match some of my stones for abstract beauty. Not for everyone, but I prefer them. My favorite stone.

http://www.spirit-stones.com/

keep it green,
Harry

Your key word in your post was ABSTRACT. Abstract in the sense that most of the stones coming from China are over worked and un-natural. There are many photos circulateing in bonafied sueseki clubs showing the Chinese working on these stones. Working them with mechanical drills compressed air chisels and super powerful acids....

I have no problem with these stones per se as long as you are not lumping them into a group and trying to call them something that they aren't.

I think sculpture fits the definition best. If you enjoy this stone sculpture from China that is all that matters.

If these were natural stones I don't think they would be so readily available on Ebay for $50.00.

 

[greerhw]

Your key word in your post was ABSTRACT. Abstract in the sense that most of the stones coming from China are over worked and un-natural. There are many photos circulateing in bonafied sueseki clubs showing the Chinese working on these stones. Working them with mechanical drills compressed air chisels and super powerful acids....

I have no problem with these stones per se as long as you are not lumping them into a group and trying to call them something that they aren't.

I think sculpture fits the definition best. If you enjoy this stone sculpture from China that is all that matters.

If these were natural stones I don't think they would be so readily available on Ebay for $50.00.

I like the girls in the movies today, but I don't think they were all blessed by God, doesn't keep me from looking. There are no rules attached to Chinese viewing stones, what you see is what you get. I just happen to enjoy whatever you want to call them, too many rules in hard core Japanese hobbies and hobbyist to suit me, with trees, displays, hanging crap in the right place, accent pieces in the proper place, uncut Suiseki that all look the same after a while, sucks all the fun out of it for me, I don't even care about collecting antique pots. I guess I'm just not a serious hobbiest like some, not talking just about you Al, just a happy go lucky guy that likes his store bought trees, without any limitations.

keep it green,
Harry

 

[Smoke]

I like the girls in the movies today, but I don't think they were all blessed by God, doesn't keep me from looking. There are no rules attached to Chinese viewing stones, what you see is what you get. I just happen to enjoy whatever you want to call them, too many rules in hobbies to suit me, with trees, displays, hanging crap in the right place, accent pieces in the proper place, sucks all the fun out of it for me, I guess I'm just not a serious hobbiest just a happy go lucky guy that likes his store bought trees. I suspect I fell through the cracks again, not being part of the establishment. Everybody is out of step in the band but me.

keep it green,
Harry

Don't get me wrong Harry. But on the other hand don't suck all the fun out of that which those that take it serious.

When it comes to stones there are purists (me) and those that just like looking at rawks (you). Nothing wrong with either as long as we don't try and push one on the other.

Like Koi, I find it hard tio believe that no one else in the world can breed champion koi but the Japanese. Like some other people on the net you gotta get out and see some countryside before you start lumping the whole USA into one basket. There may be some Japanese breeders right here in America exporting "Japanese" koi all over the world.

Like Tokoname pots, the norm these day seems to be make them in China where labor is cheaper but lets still call them Japanese pots.

Rush Limbaugh says...."Follow the money trail".....

 

[greerhw]

Don't get me wrong Harry. But on the other hand don't suck all the fun out of that which those that take it serious.

When it comes to stones there are purists (me) and those that just like looking at rawks (you). Nothing wrong with either as long as we don't try and push one on the other.

Like Koi, I find it hard tio believe that no one else in the world can breed champion koi but the Japanese. Like some other people on the net you gotta get out and see some countryside before you start lumping the whole USA into one basket. There may be some Japanese breeders right here in America exporting "Japanese" koi all over the world.

Like Tokoname pots, the norm these day seems to be make them in China where labor is cheaper but lets still call them Japanese pots.

Rush Limbaugh says...."Follow the money trail".....

Sorry I changed my post a little on you, I couldn't suck the fun out of anything for someone else, nobody listens to me. The koi hobby is just as involved as bonsai will ever be and it takes years to understand it , just like your serious approch to everything bonsai, I suspect you've spent a LOT more time doing research, just like the last 15 years I"ve studied koi. There are no Japanese breeders in the USA, the conditions of Niigata in the mountains are perfect for raising koi, all the mud ponds they are raised in are filled from snow melting up the mountains. To truly understand koi takes a lot of research. I appreciate your commitment to the serious side of bonsai, I have been there in other hobby's and now I just want to spend my time relaxing and staying low key in my hobbies. I've chilled out so to speak. You dance to your drummer and I'll set this one out.

keep it green,
Harry

 

[Smoke]

There are no Japanese breeders in the USA, the conditions of Niigata.....
keep it green,
Harry

Carefull Harry...your starting to sound like that other guy on the net that makes everything he says a fact. Just when you leave no wiggle room someone will come along and blow right out of the water.

 

[greerhw]

Carefull Harry...your starting to sound like that other guy on the net that makes everything he says a fact. Just when you leave no wiggle room someone will come along and blow right out of the water.

You're my kind of guy, we could clear out a bar with our loud discussions on the topics we are passionate about, but in the end we could walk out without any hard feeings about the others view points, because bottom line we have an appreciation of the others commitments to what they believe in. Peace my friend.

Keep it green,
Harry

 

[Smoke]

When I read this recently I thought of you....


Too bad bonsaiTALK is gone you could have seen my picture of my Kohaku

 

[greerhw]

When I read this recently I thought of you....


Too bad bonsaiTALK is gone you could have seen my picture of my Kohaku

Glad to hear you have koi.

All those guys in that story are personal friends of mine. I doubt if JR will lose his dollar anytime soon.
Here's where they hang out. JR Riley ( New Jersey, koi judge) probably knows more about koi than anyone in the US. Steve Childers used to live about three miles from me before his job transfered him to Memphis. I don't post there as much as I used to, becuse I'm more into bonsai now that koi.

http://members4.boardhost.com/koimag/

http://members4.boardhost.com/koimag/msg/1257373687.html

keep it green,
Harry

 

[Smoke]

HAD koi.....

That was 6 years ago and I filled in the pond. Dirty messy animals...kinda like puppies and human babies.

man I'm gonna pay for that one!

 

[greerhw]

HAD koi.....

That was 6 years ago and I filled in the pond. Dirty messy animals...kinda like puppies and human babies.

man I'm gonna pay for that one!

I'm tired and my basketball team The Thunder are on TV now, someone else will have to kick your ass in my absents, but I might get back to this one later......
Save me a place in line.

keep it green,
Harry

 

[Anonymous User]

Carefull Harry...your starting to sound like that other guy on the net that makes everything he says a fact.

Awww, don't be so hard on yourself Al, you'll get an ulcer.




Will

 

[M.B.]

HAD koi.....

That was 6 years ago and I filled in the pond. Dirty messy animals...kinda like puppies and human babies.

man I'm gonna pay for that one!

You betcha big boy. You post a loaded bomb like that and think you can escape the wrath of true koi keepers? I may be reading way too much between the lines but by your answer I would guess your pond was a woefully underfiltered, shallow, poorly designed swamp....and you blamed the fish????

That's like sticking a Japanese maple in a 1 inch shallow pot, put in all day full sun during one of your infamous heatwaves, water it every other day and say "stupid Japanese maples look like crap. Why would anybody want one". I'd go into further details but like Harry, I'm rather tired tonight. I haven't recovered from the convention and all the driving this past week.
Mary B.

 

[rockm]

"the conditions of Niigata in the mountains are perfect for raising koi, all the mud ponds they are raised in are filled from snow melting up the mountains."

Same arguments are, or were, made about bonsai. The soil in Japan is/was supposed to be VASTLY superior to anything else worldwide; Westerners were incapable of "understanding" bonsai and therefor any we made were immediately inferior; Only the Japanese understood what bonsai was about. Yadda, Yadda, Yadda

All that is simple claptrap, bred by the over clubby atmoshpere and a twist of Xenophobia in Japanese bonsai circles. In the last 15 years, or so, those arguments have been seen, for the most part, for the BS they are--even by the Japanese. The west figured bonsai out--it wasn't the soil, but how the soil worked that made the difference. We adapted with crushed pumice, haydite, granite and other stuff that performed like the vaunted Japanese soils. Westerners honed their perception of bonsai, perhaps even more so than the Japanese, as at it's worst Japanese bonsai can be simple rote imitation of past --piles of green doughnuts on a trunk--The more naturalistic and/or collected trees being worked in the west show a dimension that the Japanese have ignored.

As for Koi, I smell the same thing- a clubby atmosphere that doesn't want to let the outside in--Snow melt is snow melt in Japan, North America, Europe, where ever...

 

[greerhw]

Sorry Rock, but on this one you are 100% wrong, I could write all day on the subject, but it's not worth it. You will just have to trust me . We cannot duplicate Japan on this one. Here's where some of them grow up. Any one of these koi would buy you a new car.

keep it green,
Harry

 

[Victrinia Ensor]

The Japanese are not so clever after all... koi can't live out of water...

I'm soooooooooooooooooo just kidding dear.