Is it okay to CLIP shorter JBP needles for cosmetic purposes?
- Thread starter Mudroot
- Start date
0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
You have my permission.
Logically, shortened needles are less effective in producing auxin and photosynthate. Certainly for photosynthesis it is just the foliar surface area that matters - it really doesn't matter how you reduce it.
Logically, shortened needles are less effective in producing auxin and photosynthate. Certainly for photosynthesis it is just the foliar surface area that matters - it really doesn't matter how you reduce it.
A better way is to pull excess needles with heavy duty tweezers.
We try to "balance" the tree's energy. So, up near the apex, we might keep four or five pairs of needles. Middle section 7 or 8 pairs, and down at the bottom, leave them all or reduce down to 10 to 12.
All this depends upon the strength of the tree. The stronger the tree, the more needles can be pulled.
Was the tree decandled? If so, delay needle pulling until the new summer candles and needles have hardened off.
Generally speaking, it is poor practice to cut JBP needles. The tips turn brown. It opens up a pathway for diseases. The old way was to cut them. This was before decandling was discovered. Many old, out of date books still say to do it.
The only time to cut needles is for a show. Sometimes, when you decandle, you don't cut the very weakest candles. Those needles will get long. The rest of the tree will have shorter summer needles. So, if you were to show the tree, it will have a few really long needles. So, the day of the show (or maybe the day before) cut the needles just a bit shorter than all the others. That way the cut tips won't show. Mist the tree to keep the tips from turning brown.
We try to "balance" the tree's energy. So, up near the apex, we might keep four or five pairs of needles. Middle section 7 or 8 pairs, and down at the bottom, leave them all or reduce down to 10 to 12.
All this depends upon the strength of the tree. The stronger the tree, the more needles can be pulled.
Was the tree decandled? If so, delay needle pulling until the new summer candles and needles have hardened off.
Generally speaking, it is poor practice to cut JBP needles. The tips turn brown. It opens up a pathway for diseases. The old way was to cut them. This was before decandling was discovered. Many old, out of date books still say to do it.
The only time to cut needles is for a show. Sometimes, when you decandle, you don't cut the very weakest candles. Those needles will get long. The rest of the tree will have shorter summer needles. So, if you were to show the tree, it will have a few really long needles. So, the day of the show (or maybe the day before) cut the needles just a bit shorter than all the others. That way the cut tips won't show. Mist the tree to keep the tips from turning brown.
0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
While I agree, Adair, it can be a good thing in others (like cut the needles rather than pull them on white pines). If there really was a disease concern, no one would dare cut needles on their $100k JBP for show (those who own these are likely smart enough to de-toxify their pruners with alcohol, however).
Mudroot is looking for a shortcut to compensate for a mistake or just poor hulticulture/technique. He didn't rebalance, last year, and decandle his tree properly this year so his JBP is now top heavy. He wants it to instantly look better. Sure, he can cut needles for instant gratification. No, it won't kill the tree. So, if that is what he wants to do, I say he can do it - it won't do any serious harm.
But I do agree with you that it is short sighted - there are better ways to make it be a beautiful tree, it just won't be beautiful until next year or the year after that, or however long it takes for Mudroot to do what needs to learn the proper timing for decandling and techniques to balance the foliage.
Mudroot is looking for a shortcut to compensate for a mistake or just poor hulticulture/technique. He didn't rebalance, last year, and decandle his tree properly this year so his JBP is now top heavy. He wants it to instantly look better. Sure, he can cut needles for instant gratification. No, it won't kill the tree. So, if that is what he wants to do, I say he can do it - it won't do any serious harm.
But I do agree with you that it is short sighted - there are better ways to make it be a beautiful tree, it just won't be beautiful until next year or the year after that, or however long it takes for Mudroot to do what needs to learn the proper timing for decandling and techniques to balance the foliage.
Well, of course he can do as he wishes with his tree.
Perhaps he was unaware of needle pulling and the benefits of that technique.
Knowing what I know of the best practices, I cannot tell someone in effect, "the best way to do something is action A, but if you want to fake it, do action B". I'm always going to say to do it using best practices.
Honestly, I think that's why American bonsai is still not up to par with the rest of the world's. We want to take shortcuts and settle with inferior trees.
Pat Perilli used to say when training horses that "You have to take the time it takes, so that it takes less time." Same is true with bonsai.
Perhaps he was unaware of needle pulling and the benefits of that technique.
Knowing what I know of the best practices, I cannot tell someone in effect, "the best way to do something is action A, but if you want to fake it, do action B". I'm always going to say to do it using best practices.
Honestly, I think that's why American bonsai is still not up to par with the rest of the world's. We want to take shortcuts and settle with inferior trees.
Pat Perilli used to say when training horses that "You have to take the time it takes, so that it takes less time." Same is true with bonsai.
0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
Yes, I agree, Adair. That is what I like best about you.
I don't think Mudroot is unaware so much as I think he is impatient and not so devoted to achieving the best he possibly can.
I don't think Mudroot is unaware so much as I think he is impatient and not so devoted to achieving the best he possibly can.
Oso,
There's a lot of nuances to needle pulling. Quite frankly, I never understood the benefits until I studied at Boon's.
Depending on the situation, you may want to pull needles in the fall. Or, maybe at reporting time, just before buds open. Or, maybe when we decandle in the summer! Or all three! Or, none of the above!
It all depends on what stage the tree is in, how strong it is, what the short term goals are, etc.
I'll repeat the general principle for those new to pulling needles on JBP. Needle pulling is a way to balance the energy as displayed by foliage growth by the tree. JBP tend to want to grow tall, and put their efforts in the top part of the tree. So, usually, the strongest foliage growth is up top.
We want to have the tree appear "balanced". That is, the tree appear to be equally strong everywhere. It's impossible to strengthen parts of the tree. When we fertilize, it strengthens the whole tree. And we don't want to try to withhold light.
So, we use needle pulling. Pulling needles weakens the tree where the needles were pulled. Pull them everywhere, you weaken the whole tree. Selectively pull more from one section or another, you weaken the pulled area. So, we pull more from the strongest area to match the weakest area. Then the tree is "balanced".
This is an ongoing thing. At first, the strongest areas will continue to be stronger for several years. Over time, needle pulling, applied consistently will eventually train the tree to remain balanced, or at least be less unbalanced in its growth habits.
On a highly refined tree, needle pulling can be quite tedious and time consuming! Especially if you have to count pairs!
There's a lot of nuances to needle pulling. Quite frankly, I never understood the benefits until I studied at Boon's.
Depending on the situation, you may want to pull needles in the fall. Or, maybe at reporting time, just before buds open. Or, maybe when we decandle in the summer! Or all three! Or, none of the above!
It all depends on what stage the tree is in, how strong it is, what the short term goals are, etc.
I'll repeat the general principle for those new to pulling needles on JBP. Needle pulling is a way to balance the energy as displayed by foliage growth by the tree. JBP tend to want to grow tall, and put their efforts in the top part of the tree. So, usually, the strongest foliage growth is up top.
We want to have the tree appear "balanced". That is, the tree appear to be equally strong everywhere. It's impossible to strengthen parts of the tree. When we fertilize, it strengthens the whole tree. And we don't want to try to withhold light.
So, we use needle pulling. Pulling needles weakens the tree where the needles were pulled. Pull them everywhere, you weaken the whole tree. Selectively pull more from one section or another, you weaken the pulled area. So, we pull more from the strongest area to match the weakest area. Then the tree is "balanced".
This is an ongoing thing. At first, the strongest areas will continue to be stronger for several years. Over time, needle pulling, applied consistently will eventually train the tree to remain balanced, or at least be less unbalanced in its growth habits.
On a highly refined tree, needle pulling can be quite tedious and time consuming! Especially if you have to count pairs!
There's more: let's say that on one branch, there are two terminal tips. One is stronger than the other. We want yo have the tree balanced, right? We want all the growing tips yo have equal strength. So we may choose to pull needles from the strongest twig until it resembles the weaker twig. Then, the next set of buds will hopefully produce new twigs of equal strength.
Now consider doing all that on a tree such as this:
There's a lot of twigs to balance!
Me at work:
That's actually me decandling, but needle pulling is just as intense!
Now consider doing all that on a tree such as this:
There's a lot of twigs to balance!
Me at work:
That's actually me decandling, but needle pulling is just as intense!
Thanks for the concise reply without assumptions farther than the question.
Perhaps I should have mentioned that this is a NEW tree straight from a bonsai nursery so my horticulture shortcomings might have been forgiven.
Somewhat.
LanceMac10
Imperial Masterpiece
Do it the right way, which I'm still learning.
Aside from the quickly to fade, neater appearance, this does nothing to make the tree better.
And yes, I HAVE done it, the cut ends turn brown eventually. Regardless of your and my better efforts.
I do wish you luck....
Aside from the quickly to fade, neater appearance, this does nothing to make the tree better.
And yes, I HAVE done it, the cut ends turn brown eventually. Regardless of your and my better efforts.
I do wish you luck....
dirk hoorelbeke
Omono
don't cut, pull old needles to balance. Depending on development stage use the correct technique next year.
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