Is it true that dwarf scots pine are weaker than normal scots pine?

[Manbris]

Hi,

AI said yes below but I am not sure - as these are grafted to normal scots pine root stock?

"
Yes, it is true that dwarf Scots pine cultivars are significantly less vigorous than the standard Scots pine.

Here's a breakdown of the key differences:

• Standard Scots Pine: The species (Pinus sylvestris) is a large, fast-growing conifer that can reach heights of 30-60 feet in cultivation and up to 100 feet in the wild.1 It has a medium to fast growth rate, developing a classic conical shape in youth and a more open, flat-topped crown with age.
  
  
• Dwarf Scots Pine Cultivars: These are selections of the species that have a naturally slower growth rate and a more compact form.3 They are bred specifically for smaller gardens and for uses like rock gardens, containers, or bonsai.4 For example:
  
  • Some dwarf cultivars grow only a few inches (e.g., 2-4 inches) per year.
  • Many will only reach a mature height of 3-10 feet, and often grow wider than they are tall.
  • They are explicitly described as "slow-growing" in horticultural descriptions.
  • The term "dwarf" in this context is a direct reference to this reduced vigor and slower growth, which results in a much smaller size at maturity compared to the wild-type species.

"

Thanks!

 

[leatherback]

Not a native speaker but..

significantly less vigorous

is not the same as

weaker

I would say. Something can be very robust yet grow slow. Similarly, some of the fast growing species are weak.

I would say they are not weaker but they grow slower.

 

[penumbra]

There are several cultivars so there is not one answer. However, I do have a dwarf that is significantly less vigorous than any of my seedling grown plants.

 

[Manbris]

Do we check this by looking at the size of buds and number of buds for next year at this time of the year?

Is it not decided by the health of the root stock?

 

[MaciekA]

I really dig the way that @leatherback has framed it above, and when I consider my dwarf scots pine, it is indeed robust. As @penumbra pointed out, there are a bunch of cultivars out there and I can't speak for all of them, but I have worked with a "green penguin" scots pine for a few years now. It has a type of vigor that channels into bud generation and density (and roots, it seems).

BTW, if you go to a nursery and see a "green penguin" scots pine, you may scoff and say "wait, this weird thing? this for bonsai? really??" (because it produces some weird growth). But once you gain control over it via wiring and thinning, it can be tidy.

Someone should graft that genetic onto a non-crap trunk though, because I haven't seen a good trunk yet, including the one I have. I enjoy my results, but at some point it'll have to be traded away. That is the main issue with a dwarf scots pine (or dwarf mugo) cultivar at the commercial level. Most of us come across these genetics in the form of grafted nursery stock and a halfway decent trunk is a needle in the haystack, very hard to find.

 

[MaciekA]

Do we check this by looking at the size of buds and number of buds for next year at this time of the year?

Is it not decided by the health of the root stock?

There's definitely a general impression you can get from needle mass, bud mass, and thickening around wire. Be careful in judging from single bud mass though because if a pine gives you 50 buds and you select down to 25, they'll strengthen accordingly now that they have a greater share (each) of the stored energy in the tree. In "green penguin" scots pine, I can still vary the needle length dramatically if I select down to a very small number of buds for the next season. In other words, a dwarf pine genetic might be capable of producing long needles if you override its propensity to produce a lot of buds. In other other words, some dwarf cultivars might be hacking their way to smaller proportions via excessive budding/ramification. I say some because I've only played with "green penguin", but I've seen variations of this in dwarf JWP, dwarf shore pine, mugo. There is still a density tradeoff at play so it's good to evaluate the annual added mass of the whole tree. You mention the roots, and for "green penguin" at least, the root production is prolific (responds well to a bare root!), so I wouldn't be surprised if the root stock does help.

 

[Manbris]

Great information.

I ended up with a few large nursery dwarf scots and mugs pines.

For example, scots pine beuvronensis - pics 7408 and 7409- I think you do as you say - I think they are strong variety? all these are repotted this spring except for 7416

In other other words, some dwarf cultivars might be hacking their way to smaller proportions via excessive budding/ramification.

The other variety Scots pine 'Watereri'- pics 7411- 7413- they seemed to have long needles and not sure if it is a strong variety.

Pics 7414-7415 are normal scots pine - a relatively strong one just got it this spring and repotted.

Finally the 7416 is a dwarf mug- it has purple bugs? do some scots pines also have pink buds?

All these seem to suggest you are quite right on how they behave. I guess for a beginner, what does it robust mean in terms of a dwarf variety like these compared to normal scots pine? anything we can optimise or play with?

 

[stubmle]

Beuvronensis seems to be a good variety for bonsai. I think Peter Chan has a few videos of him working on a large specimen. Not sure about the other varieties of scots- I don't seem them much around here, mugos seem to be much more common in my area.

I've seen purple buds on some mugos. Do you know what cultivar this one is?

 

[Manbris]

Beuvronensis seems to be a good variety for bonsai. I think Peter Chan has a few videos of him working on a large specimen. Not sure about the other varieties of scots- I don't seem them much around here, mugos seem to be much more common in my area.

I've seen purple buds on some mugos. Do you know what cultivar this one is?

Thanks yes I recall he said he got it from Italian - I think these are from Italy as well.

Not quite sure- like to be Mugo Ophir.