rockm
Spuds Moyogi
Spread the word. That's where changes will begin.
Is the current bonsai instructional system broken?
- Thread starter Owen Reich
- Start date
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
Well, um, that's Kiiinda how bonsai started in the U.S.--un-knowledgeable beginners educating themselves, furthering their knowledge with little or no assistance...You certainly don't have to be an expert to manage a club or organize a meeting...
complaining its dark and not turning on a light THAT's stupid
Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
Hobby here.
Observe nature.
Read, read, read ............................
Observe nature.
Read, read, read ............................
Lars Grimm
Chumono
In a recent Mirai podcast, Walter Pall discusses how he gave up a career in consulting to pursue his passion in bonsai. He actually threw down some numbers and essentially he used to make more per hour in consulting than an entire day of bonsai workshops. Even for professionals, most shows and clubs pay a very small amount of money. Supply (very few trained professionals) and demand (lots of us want to learn) should push this up, but it hasn't happened yet. I suspect this is because club fees and show fees are still pretty low in order to encourage more people to attend.
Warpig
Chumono
While this might be part of it and some thing could be better. I think another part of it is, some like the idea of bonsai and want to learn but as they learn how much there is that goes into it. They learn its time/money they cant or unable to see it through.
jimib
Shohin
I’ve been kind of dabbling in and out of bonsai for a few years now. About a year and a half or two ago I decided I really enjoyed it and wanted to get further into it. I joined a local club and attended some of their classes and workshops. Between that and the Internet I just kept learning although a lot of it was contradictory and I realize there is such a thing as too much information. Or should I say too much misinformation. So I kind of stayed away for a few months. Ended up attending a private workshop at someone’s house and that’s when I realized I really didn’t know shit. I’ve attended a few workshops, and I was a member of a study group where I learned more in those combined six days than I did in three years of looking at shit on the Internet.
I enjoyed the study group a great deal. When I was invited I told my wife I was up in the air about it. For that money I can buy one or two nice trees. My wife looked at me and said “and do what, kill them like the others? Get in the study group”. I learned a tremendous amount, not just about trees but about pots and displaying bonsai as well. Along with that I met some very talented people that were in the group. These weren’t two or three hour classes, rather an 8 to 10 hour all day event. I can see how a professional could get burned out. Traveling hundreds if not thousands of miles in a week. Spending hours a day working on other peoples trees and trying to teach different skill levels at the same time. It would make sense to me for a professional to not want to travel to these things, yet hold them at their own place. Where they have all their tools and supplies as well as trees to use for examples. The online stuff is great, but frankly I can’t get through a video without falling asleep. There’s very little that captures my interest on video enough to keep me from dozing off. However to have a professional, or even someone a lot more skilled me, which is most of the people I know in this hobby, giving me suggestions on what to cut or shooting ideas passed them on what they thought Is very valuable to me.
I enjoyed the study group a great deal. When I was invited I told my wife I was up in the air about it. For that money I can buy one or two nice trees. My wife looked at me and said “and do what, kill them like the others? Get in the study group”. I learned a tremendous amount, not just about trees but about pots and displaying bonsai as well. Along with that I met some very talented people that were in the group. These weren’t two or three hour classes, rather an 8 to 10 hour all day event. I can see how a professional could get burned out. Traveling hundreds if not thousands of miles in a week. Spending hours a day working on other peoples trees and trying to teach different skill levels at the same time. It would make sense to me for a professional to not want to travel to these things, yet hold them at their own place. Where they have all their tools and supplies as well as trees to use for examples. The online stuff is great, but frankly I can’t get through a video without falling asleep. There’s very little that captures my interest on video enough to keep me from dozing off. However to have a professional, or even someone a lot more skilled me, which is most of the people I know in this hobby, giving me suggestions on what to cut or shooting ideas passed them on what they thought Is very valuable to me.
Again, you have no clue of anyone's efforts to judge. Your opinion appears to be that the current state is fine. Some disagree. That's ok, you don't have to take this personally. I don't get why you need to insult disagreement as "whining". The fact we disagree with you doesn't make us stupid.
Some went to Japan to learn. Great. I won't be. Did you? I'm perfectly happy not being Bjorn or Bill V. I don't understand your mindset that you either have to put all your commitment to it or you shouldn't do it at all. Did you do what Bill V did? Were you always happy with the quality of education you were getting? I'm doubting.
This question isn't about someone like Bill promoting bonsai. This question isn't about exposure or awareness. It was about the completely piecemeal and somewhat inaccessible educational system to learn Bonsai. Not everyone wants a 30 year quest to learn half of what apprentices learn in 4. You think a lifelong quest for what is taught in a college timeframe is "smart"? Really?
The apprentice system is very difficult to tolerate. In Japan, the Masters ask for a 5 year commitment, and the custom is to then give the Master a “free year” to say “Thank You” for being a slave for 5 years!
There have been only a few attempts at having apprentices here in the US.
In Japan, apprentices work every day, sunrise until late in the evening. No days off except maybe two a month, so you can do laundry. Virtually no pay. Just enough for rent, and laundry.
Good luck finding a US apprentice!
Woocash
Omono
I’d love a standardised syllabus for newcomers, or even progressing to more advanced hobbyists. A self study programme where we are pushed in the direction of studying certain topics in a beneficial order (just watching videos doesn’t always cut the mustard, especially at $20 a month, which not all can afford). Recommended reading, a designated textbook type manual Available to buy etc. Clubs could hand a basic standardised course structure out to new members (also available online) so we know where to start and so we can walk before running, but not so that we need our hand held every step of the way.
If you make it that far then spending the extra money and time needed to improve further would only be natural. Speaking as a beginner, the hobby should be made more accessible for beginners, but should focus on advancing the skills and knowledge of the next level up IMO.
If you make it that far then spending the extra money and time needed to improve further would only be natural. Speaking as a beginner, the hobby should be made more accessible for beginners, but should focus on advancing the skills and knowledge of the next level up IMO.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
What I'm saying is if you want improvement, stop thinking that "someone" should do this or that and ask yourself how YOU can improve things. Doesn't mean you have to go to Japan or let your family starve, only find a way to push things forward. Talk to people about bonsai, join a club, WORK in a club, do grunt work for a show...etc.
And I've been to college. It ain't all that. ;-)
Lol. College got me just enough to make sure I can pay back the debt till I retire. I was just using the college timeframe though
I say what I say because I think a lot here are trying to be engaged and put forth the effort. Hell I went to 3 meetings so far and I've volunteered to be our bonsai club's webmaster. Our club actually is a very prominent club on the East, which I had no idea about. but even so, meetings are once a month. I am here right now because I spend all day in some capacity reading or discussing. But I don't have the money for things like Bjorn or Ryan Neil's classes. And I can't afford $100-$200 a month to go to demos at the local nursery. I simply don't have time to devote to driving everywhere for bonsai. And so that's why I think having a more tight knit educational resource is a good idea. I just don't think the problem with bonsai education around here solely rests on laziness. It's very hard to access.
chansen
Shohin
I've done the "learn from the Internet and books" thing, tried to learn on my own by just doing/studying pictures, attended club meetings, visited museums, Bonsai Mirai etc. Pretty much tried all the things. I learned some things along the way for sure, but it was never quite enough. Things changed when I committed my $$ and did an intensive with Michael Hagedorn. Since then I've been fortunate enough to regularly bring in people to work on my trees with me. Adair is 100% right with the statement above, there's NOTHING better than working directly, hands-on, with a pro.
PeaceLoveBonsai
Chumono
Seems like the professionals in the US need to form an association. From there, maybe they can begin to formulate some guidelines for pay, per diems, etc. Also, they could create standards from which these professionals must attain to be a professional. This idea is often shot down for various reasons, but to Owen’s original question of how to change/improve the system, I don’t see a better place than with teaming up and working together, as opposed to working in silos.
BackyardBonsai
Shohin
Am just happy with what I have. Once in a while I go to workshops if I like the instructor's tree. This is just another post that will get a lot of posts but no one really getting anything out of. Carry on...
Josh88
Shohin
I think this is a great question to pose, and I have a lot of thoughts about so many points brought up here so far. To begin, the best thing I did for my education early on was find someone with more experience than me and ask them if there was any help they needed during repotting season. This is a hands on hobby and all the reading in the world does little good if you don't get your hands dirty. Those hands then need repetition to form muscle memory, so go do whatever you just learned as many times as possible. By offering my extra set of hands I got to watch and actually do so many of the repotting tasks that intimidated me in a setting that offered guidance. Now each repotting season I put the offer out to anyone that would like to lend me a hand to come over and get some experience with these tasks. Two people sifting soil is much faster than one, and having an extra set of hands to hold things in place is invaluable. Bring a six pack, a bottle of wine, or a bag of your favorite coffee and you'll probably be invited back to watch or do some wiring and pruning : ) When my friend and mentor had to go in for surgery and requested my help moving some larger trees to the greenhouse, he thanked me by giving me some material he was no longer interested in but was far better than anything I owned at the time. We all win.
In regards to new club members feeling shy or unwelcome, I feel the last Bonsai Society of Portland president, Lee Cheatle, had a wonderful and simple solution that should be replicated everywhere. He would begin each meeting by asking any new attendees to stand up. He would say "Look to your left, look to your right, look in front of and behind you. Every one you see here was once standing right where you are. We were all beginners once, and we are all here to answer any of your questions, so don't be afraid to reach out. We are all friends here" This statement always set a tone for every meeting not only of inclusivity in the club, but a reminder to the more experienced members to actively be inviting and open to the new members. There is a reason there are almost 400 active members in this club.
I think it is in our best interests to share what we have learned, at whatever level we are at. If you are actively seeking good information, then you have good information to share. Both of my parents were teachers, and I teach classes in my chosen profession, so although I am far from a bonsai pro, I have a knack for sharing what I have learned, and my love for bonsai makes it a joy to help others learn and foster their passion for this hobby. So when the founder of the small group that I was first introduced to bonsai through became ill, I picked up the torch to keep the group running. In order to do a good job presenting what I know and answering questions to the best of my ability, I had to up my game. "If you want to learn something, read about it. If you want to understand something, write about it. If you want to master something, teach it." Getting ready to teach a class will force you to learn a lot. With so many resources available now, you won't last long spreading bad information. The nursery that hosts the group offered compensation for my time, so I arranged to run the group in exchange for store credit. Wire, tools, supplies, and material now comes cheap while I expedite my own education and gain experience. Again, we all win.
These are a few things I think will help get people new to the hobby learning faster and building a sense of community in bonsai. Now the pros don't have to spend their day answering newb questions, and the people coming into their classes and workshops are better informed and operating with some experience under their belt. I don't think there is a "quick fix" for education in bonsai, but if we can be honest with ourselves about our strengths and weaknesses and find a good place within the educational hierarchy, and of course be clear with others about what we do and don't know, and what is read knowledge vs. experience based knowledge, we can all help each other progress and grow. If you feel confident teaching new people then offer beginner classes, or arrange to host a group that will bring interested people from your area together. If you want to charge a small fee and your community supports it then you can buy a new pot or some material to work on with what you earned. Either way your time will be well spent and you will likely get more in return than you expected.
In regards to new club members feeling shy or unwelcome, I feel the last Bonsai Society of Portland president, Lee Cheatle, had a wonderful and simple solution that should be replicated everywhere. He would begin each meeting by asking any new attendees to stand up. He would say "Look to your left, look to your right, look in front of and behind you. Every one you see here was once standing right where you are. We were all beginners once, and we are all here to answer any of your questions, so don't be afraid to reach out. We are all friends here" This statement always set a tone for every meeting not only of inclusivity in the club, but a reminder to the more experienced members to actively be inviting and open to the new members. There is a reason there are almost 400 active members in this club.
I think it is in our best interests to share what we have learned, at whatever level we are at. If you are actively seeking good information, then you have good information to share. Both of my parents were teachers, and I teach classes in my chosen profession, so although I am far from a bonsai pro, I have a knack for sharing what I have learned, and my love for bonsai makes it a joy to help others learn and foster their passion for this hobby. So when the founder of the small group that I was first introduced to bonsai through became ill, I picked up the torch to keep the group running. In order to do a good job presenting what I know and answering questions to the best of my ability, I had to up my game. "If you want to learn something, read about it. If you want to understand something, write about it. If you want to master something, teach it." Getting ready to teach a class will force you to learn a lot. With so many resources available now, you won't last long spreading bad information. The nursery that hosts the group offered compensation for my time, so I arranged to run the group in exchange for store credit. Wire, tools, supplies, and material now comes cheap while I expedite my own education and gain experience. Again, we all win.
These are a few things I think will help get people new to the hobby learning faster and building a sense of community in bonsai. Now the pros don't have to spend their day answering newb questions, and the people coming into their classes and workshops are better informed and operating with some experience under their belt. I don't think there is a "quick fix" for education in bonsai, but if we can be honest with ourselves about our strengths and weaknesses and find a good place within the educational hierarchy, and of course be clear with others about what we do and don't know, and what is read knowledge vs. experience based knowledge, we can all help each other progress and grow. If you feel confident teaching new people then offer beginner classes, or arrange to host a group that will bring interested people from your area together. If you want to charge a small fee and your community supports it then you can buy a new pot or some material to work on with what you earned. Either way your time will be well spent and you will likely get more in return than you expected.
kale
Shohin
Personally, my 2 cents is that the Mirai model is probably the most viable long-term model. Establish a home garden, make it a desirable destination, and create educational materials.
[/QUOTE]
Can one just pop into the Mirai nursery and poke around? I tried to find an address online and didn't have any luck.
[/QUOTE]
Can one just pop into the Mirai nursery and poke around? I tried to find an address online and didn't have any luck.
BackyardBonsai
Shohin
Can one just pop into the Mirai nursery and poke around? I tried to find an address online and didn't have any luck.
[/QUOTE]
There is a thread on this site talking about this. I believe you will have to pay $50 bucks before you allowed in.
Orion_metalhead
Masterpiece
For those saying you want a different method of education... what specific gaps in knowledge are you looking to fill?
Ohmy222
Shohin
I don't know if there is a problem. Maybe so but it is easier than ever to get information. Having said that, some thoughts:
What do you think the teaching of bonsai should be like and what do you think your customers want? There has to be an intersection. I work in a fortune 500 company and it surprises me how often these two things aren't defined. Especially troubling if you they don't align. I say this because I don't believe your average bonsai practitioner wants to pay for intensive training. This makes a lot of sense for people wanting to show in the nationals at some point or wanting be recognized as the best AND have the money. Most people don't have the money to pay for these and especially if travel and lodging is part of it. Bonsai is a brutally expensive hobby and if you clear that hurdle you have to deal with the patience required. I am OK money wise now but I started as a teenager and even buying a couple of bags of turface and some mica pots was an big expense. Once you get into tool sets, japanese soils, wires, benches, nice pots, and water systems etc it adds up before your expense of trees.
Local instruction would be great if it was local. I live in Atlanta, one of the largest cities in the US and still have to drive over an hour to get to the nearest bonsai place. Local instruction is a no-go for a large group of people. Even Mirai, I did for a year and never went back. It either covered what I needed or most often didn't provide what I wanted. I would gladly pay for a video on developing a Beech bonsai but don't care about the multiple videos on conifers that I have no interest in or works in my climate. Having plowed through a lot of the videos, very few of them would have benefited a brand new person.
The real answer to bonsai teaching is free videos with the instructor selling items and select services. Best would be teaser videos on youtube that points to a site of free videos. Maybe you have specialty courses at a price. Sounds harsh but someone will do a Mirai live for free and suck up a lot of online sales. Just hasn't happened yet. Jonas might be the closest with his blog and supporting information. It stinks to hear but people want free information except those that want that special extra. It is hard to compete with free and i imagine all teachers in all hobbies are struggling with that. Most importantly I think free could bring in more people to the hobby which is the real issue. Ryan Neil is awesome but he is not growing the pie, just carving it up. Bonsai nut, Brussels bonsai, and guys like Peter Chan are the ones growing the pie.
What do you think the teaching of bonsai should be like and what do you think your customers want? There has to be an intersection. I work in a fortune 500 company and it surprises me how often these two things aren't defined. Especially troubling if you they don't align. I say this because I don't believe your average bonsai practitioner wants to pay for intensive training. This makes a lot of sense for people wanting to show in the nationals at some point or wanting be recognized as the best AND have the money. Most people don't have the money to pay for these and especially if travel and lodging is part of it. Bonsai is a brutally expensive hobby and if you clear that hurdle you have to deal with the patience required. I am OK money wise now but I started as a teenager and even buying a couple of bags of turface and some mica pots was an big expense. Once you get into tool sets, japanese soils, wires, benches, nice pots, and water systems etc it adds up before your expense of trees.
Local instruction would be great if it was local. I live in Atlanta, one of the largest cities in the US and still have to drive over an hour to get to the nearest bonsai place. Local instruction is a no-go for a large group of people. Even Mirai, I did for a year and never went back. It either covered what I needed or most often didn't provide what I wanted. I would gladly pay for a video on developing a Beech bonsai but don't care about the multiple videos on conifers that I have no interest in or works in my climate. Having plowed through a lot of the videos, very few of them would have benefited a brand new person.
The real answer to bonsai teaching is free videos with the instructor selling items and select services. Best would be teaser videos on youtube that points to a site of free videos. Maybe you have specialty courses at a price. Sounds harsh but someone will do a Mirai live for free and suck up a lot of online sales. Just hasn't happened yet. Jonas might be the closest with his blog and supporting information. It stinks to hear but people want free information except those that want that special extra. It is hard to compete with free and i imagine all teachers in all hobbies are struggling with that. Most importantly I think free could bring in more people to the hobby which is the real issue. Ryan Neil is awesome but he is not growing the pie, just carving it up. Bonsai nut, Brussels bonsai, and guys like Peter Chan are the ones growing the pie.
Last edited:
thumblessprimate1
Masterpiece
Living conditions is pretty rough as I've heard and witnessed. The psychological effect on a person is rough!
