Is the work worth the $59 price?

[GrimLore]

When things seem too good to be true they usually are. Went to buy it and the owner was like that it s tagged wrong. It's really $180. No thanks

Sounds like a real asshat - Myself I would not bother to stop there again

Grimmy

 

[drew33998]

Sounds like a real asshat - Myself I would not bother to stop there again

Grimmy

Nope. There wasn't even any other tags on it. They just screwed up and realized they would lose money if they sold it for that.

 

[Cadillactaste]

Well in the big picture of things...losing ones business is still a loss. Just saying. They chose to look at it wrong.

 

[Adair M]

Consider it a blessing.

Read Smoke's post again...


Unsuitable material is never a bargain. At any price.

 

[Cadillactaste]

Consider it a blessing.

Read Smoke's post again...


Unsuitable material is never a bargain. At any price.

Very true Adair!

 

[Giga]

Smoke has a good point on this but there is another way to look at these type of trees, at least for me. While smokes point is from a professional point of view. What do you want from this tree and ones like it. I bought one very similar to this that was 250$ marked down to 50$. It has a few flaws like this but it's for my enjoyment and see what I can do with it. Granted you may need to ground grow, layer, graft or any other number of techniques. For me I love working on raw material, as much as finished material that smoke likes.

Not dissing smoke in the least, but what I'm saying is, even though at some point you will want more finished or rough stock grown for bonsai, regardless of price. Reaching that level, knowing what to look for in material when browsing nursery material, and I can't truly say I'd buy this without seeing it in real life, you may always have material like this because it's enjoyable to work on finished bonsai in a pricy pots and cheap material in plastic pots.(run on)

To me working on something worth my time is everything I collect or buy, EVERYTHING, no exception. To say "worth my time" means actually knowing what you buy and if you have the time to give the tree the respect it needs. I have somewhere around 50 trees and know my limit so I make sure I have time for anything new I pick up. So everything is worth my time, it's just that I enjoy material like this and what it can bring to me.

So I think I just pretty much agreed with smoke but in a more confused way, and I think I'd buy the tree too.

Well next time I'll post after I read that they gyped you. Good for thought I guess. Maybe go back and get a stupid employee to ring you up lol

 

[drew33998]

True, but I see things way different than other people do. Not because I am better than others, I have just reached a point in my career as a bonsai practitioner that wasting my time on bad material is not worth it to me. When I see someone say that 59.00 is a price they are willing to pay to learn on or allow to die because they were not competent enough to do the correct work is a crutch to say, "gee I want this material at any price and since its cheap if it dies who cares."?

I care. I don't buy material to chop down. Sure, I have experimented and had some successes along the way but for the most part I am not a dead head kind of chopper. I treat the purchase of every piece of material I buy as a long term tree with definate possibilities of being a show worthy tree in my life time. It does not matter if its $10.00 or $1000.00. Every purchase has to meet my ruthless set of principles or I don't buy it. Let me show you two trees. Lets say that each costs $50.00. Trident maples, one is rather small and one is very thick. Both cost the same, but on a cursery review which stump offers the most for a best tree?

View attachment 88211

For some it may be the tree on the left with its very beautiful and well developed hogarth curve trunk. For others it might be the sheer size of the trunk in comparison to the other for the same price. Both trees have some movement which is paramount. They both exit the soil at a slant which is extremely necessary for a good bonsai. A tree bolting straight from the ground is never very good except for broom style trees or formal upright form trees. Keeping in mind that these are my opinions and others will see if different, the tree on the left will probably always be a shohin sized tree. The hogarth curve is well established in the trunk already and it has good taper and excellent visual speed*.

* Visual Speed = the ability of a bonsai to be made in such a way that the trunk tapers to the top evenly, the space of the branches diminsh from bottom to top evenly and the internodes of the leaves do the same from branch at trunk to tip. In other words one should be able to take in a tree from bottom to top in one visual episode with no bumps in the speed of that view. Bumps being uneven spaces between branches, larger branches above thinner lower branches etc., etc.


The right tree on the other hand has the potential of being a much larger finished tree if that is what one wants. This tree could easily finish out a 24 inches or more. If grown in the ground thicker bottom branches could be grown as sacrificial limbs and cut back for taper over a period of time. During this time the apex could also benefit from some sacrificial growth. While not as shapely as the smaller charge, the top could have some new directional changes in it to help with more movement.

From my point of view, I feel the tree on the left has more of the attributes I wish my stump to have when starting a new tree. I have no problem in making small trees while others like larger trees. The tree on the right, for me needs lots of time to smooth out some chop visuals. The large chop that started the stump has an abrupt direction change with a very square corner. It will take at least five years or more for that to smooth out. It will only do that with long sacrificial growth and working on the trunk prematurely will hinder that change. The small tree while having fresh pruning scars shows very smooth transitions in the trunk, making it "pretty", which is a term used often when referring to maples.

Now this tree from the OP. I think I have made some very clear and consise statements about what I want when buying a maple. It should be no surprise to anyone how I might feel about that maple even at $59.00. Even at $29.00, for me, it would be a leverite tree.

Leverite where it is in the nursery!

Italic text are key points.

Smoke, both those trees are showing multiple chops. Did you buy them at this stage already? I'm curious to know what you paid for those trees, or what they would retail for? My guess would be in the $200's at least, or that is what I see as the going rate for that type of material in my channels. Unless you get a family deal from a buddy of course.

 

[Smoke]

Smoke has a good point on this but there is another way to look at these type of trees, at least for me. While smokes point is from a professional point of view. What do you want from this tree and ones like it. I bought one very similar to this that was 250$ marked down to 50$. It has a few flaws like this but it's for my enjoyment and see what I can do with it. Granted you may need to ground grow, layer, graft or any other number of techniques. For me I love working on raw material, as much as finished material that smoke likes.

Not dissing smoke in the least, but what I'm saying is, even though at some point you will want more finished or rough stock grown for bonsai, regardless of price. Reaching that level, knowing what to look for in material when browsing nursery material, and I can't truly say I'd buy this without seeing it in real life, you may always have material like this because it's enjoyable to work on finished bonsai in a pricy pots and cheap material in plastic pots.(run on)

To me working on something worth my time is everything I collect or buy, EVERYTHING, no exception. To say "worth my time" means actually knowing what you buy and if you have the time to give the tree the respect it needs. I have somewhere around 50 trees and know my limit so I make sure I have time for anything new I pick up. So everything is worth my time, it's just that I enjoy material like this and what it can bring to me.

So I think I just pretty much agreed with smoke but in a more confused way, and I think I'd buy the tree too.

Well next time I'll post after I read that they gyped you. Good for thought I guess. Maybe go back and get a stupid employee to ring you up lol

If you came to my home I could give you a better tree than this. A good maple tree is always built from the ground up never the other way round. Exceptional maple trees are grown from seed or sticks and are worked over carefully from beginning to end. They are not Doug Phillips/Frankenstein trees.

Trees like this are not made by cutting down larger trees and growing them out.

This is how a real maple tree grows. Trees like this have very gradual "pretty, sensual" taper and are the epitome of graceful. They are not started from a baseball bat and worked backwards.

They are started like this.

 

[Smoke]

Smoke, both those trees are showing multiple chops. Did you buy them at this stage already? I'm curious to know what you paid for those trees, or what they would retail for? My guess would be in the $200's at least, or that is what I see as the going rate for that type of material in my channels. Unless you get a family deal from a buddy of course.

Those are trees I photographed at Muranaka's over the Thanksgiving weekend. No, I did not buy them. The tree on the left was 87.00 I have no idea what the other tree was. Muranaka is coming over for the Fresno Swapmeet and will probably bring both of them so I will get the price and post them here.

Yes they do show multiple chops, do you have a question about that?

Here are some other benches.

 

[Smoke]

Yes that last picture is a fagus Crenata

 

[Smoke]

Good post Al.

Not Snarky

Smoke, every once in a while you refrain from making snarky posts, and produce a gem! This is one of those gems.

Snarky

Actually Adair you have met me for about 30 minutes tops, so you really have no idea who I am or how I speak with a group of bonsai enthusiasts with whom I might all have known personally for many years. If you had you would know that the writing you like so much is much the same way I am in real life. Make no mistake I call a spade a spade but all in all I am still sought after around the state for demo's and stuff. My current job has changed much over the last 14 years and I have found that I am working harder now than I did 14 years ago, probably due in part to the economy and doing the work of two or three guys instead of one. I just can't get away as easy as I used to. I will chalk snarky up to age, and being a grump, still look badass in short shorts though. Just keep in mind... being snarky for snarkies sake is rude, being snarky because your right is because you've earned it.

 

[Adair M]

Not Snarky


Snarky

Actually Adair you have met me for about 30 minutes tops, so you really have no idea who I am or how I speak with a group of bonsai enthusiasts with whom I might all have known personally for many years. If you had you would know that the writing you like so much is much the same way I am in real life. Make no mistake I call a spade a spade but all in all I am still sought after around the state for demo's and stuff. My current job has changed much over the last 14 years and I have found that I am working harder now than I did 14 years ago, probably due in part to the economy and doing the work of two or three guys instead of one. I just can't get away as easy as I used to. I will chalk snarky up to age, and being a grump, still look badass in short shorts though. Just keep in mind... being snarky for snarkies sake is rude, being snarky because your right is because you've earned it.

Where did I say anything about your job or work ethic? I have complemented you on your woodworking. Your knowledge of stands. Your knowledge of soils. Your antique coin collection. Your tridents. Your blog. In this thread, I told someone to reread your post. Because it's good.

Sure my comment was snarky. So are a lot of your posts. But the post you made earlier about choosing good material was excellent.

I'm not trying to start a fight with you. Just teasing you a bit. I know you come on this site to stir the pudding.

 

[TheSneakyTruth]

If you came to my home I could give you a better tree than this. A good maple tree is always built from the ground up never the other way round. Exceptional maple trees are grown from seed or sticks and are worked over carefully from beginning to end. They are not Doug Phillips/Frankenstein trees.

Trees like this are not made by cutting down larger trees and growing them out.
View attachment 88277

Hi Smoke, could you give an estimate of the trunk width of these Japanese Maples, the first 2 in your descriptive post? I have a very small coral bark maple that has given me branches that sympathise well with the designs of these 2 trees, and would just like to know what I need to work towards. Thanks!

 

[drew33998]

Thanks smoke. You may be a little rough around the edges but I get the gist of your posts. Don't tempt me my wife's family lives in San Francisco

 

[Smoke]

Hi Smoke, could you give an estimate of the trunk width of these Japanese Maples, the first 2 in your descriptive post? I have a very small coral bark maple that has given me branches that sympathise well with the designs of these 2 trees, and would just like to know what I need to work towards. Thanks!

Which post? Just give the number of the post. Thanks

 

[Giga]

Well we agree to disagree I guess. I like big gnarly old looking trees that look ravaged by time and weather. I guess I much more like Walter Paul's style. While the thin gracefull maple bonsai you posted is very nice and sought after it's not everyone's taste, and I wouldn't turn one down.

I think good trees can still be made from material like this. While there are common practictices and rules to follow with bonsai I don't think there is only one way to skin a cat. I do agree that this tree may never be a graceful perfect taper that you posted but who says it has to?

 

[drew33998]

Those are trees I photographed at Muranaka's over the Thanksgiving weekend. No, I did not buy them. The tree on the left was 87.00 I have no idea what the other tree was. Muranaka is coming over for the Fresno Swapmeet and will probably bring both of them so I will get the price and post them here.

Yes they do show multiple chops, do you have a question about that?

Here are some other benches.
View attachment 88280 View attachment 88281 View attachment 88282 View attachment 88283 View attachment 88284

My only question about the chops was that you said you don't buy material and chop it. But you clarified that by showing that the material you are after is started as a whip and chopped several times through the years, versus on major chop on an already large tree

 

[Giga]

My only question about the chops was that you said you don't buy material and chop it. But you clarified that by showing that the material you are after is started as a whip and chopped several times through the years, versus on major chop on an already large tree

It's about the transition and healing the chops. A massive chop like this material takes a long time to heal and sacrifice branches and may never heal, but thats not always a bad thing. Also the base will be much thicker than the next trunk above it. Go look in the uro thread and look @MACH5 j maple, it's amazing and may be my favorite on here. Its all knarly n chopped from big cuts

 

[Paulpash]

@Smoke - does the California "West Coast" factor spoil you in terms of the quantity, quality and price of raw material? You seem to be in an excellent position to acquire quality stock at very affordable prices.

 

[Adair M]

@Smoke - does the California "West Coast" factor spoil you in terms of the quantity, quality and price of raw material? You seem to be in an excellent position to acquire quality stock at very affordable prices.

Marie, you are correct with that analysis. There are exceptions, of course, but there are more really good bonsai on the West coast of the US than East simply because the Asian influence is stronger there.