J.B.Pine - is Adair around ?

[Anthony]

Adair,

hee hee, smile, you will have to understand that my brother-in-law is an Imaginative Traditional Painter, and his work is a blend of a study from Nature, using the highly accurate technique of Sight-Size and his imagination, as well as in this case Chinese ink paintings.

An example of an imaginative painting -

Titian
http://media.cleveland.com/ent_impact_arts/photo/bone-titian-cmajpg-e464aa997be2377f.jpg

Sight-Size -

In the early 80's this was one school - Studio Cecil-Graves.

http://www.florenceacademyofart.com/

http://www.charlescecilstudios.com/

Only example I could find of a mature J.B.pine in an open area. However trees tend to shorten when grown in the open and without any competition.
A good example is the Poui [ Tabebuia sp - black heart ] 100 feet in the jungles, 30' in the backyard.

Anyway, an old Black pine or what came up on Google under J.B.pine in Japan. -

http://www.earthscapeinhabitant.com...amatsu-Ritsurin-Park-by-Manmaru-Wikipedia.jpg

More images later on in the week.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Adair M]

On that picture of the old JBP in Japan: you'll notice that they have to support the weight of those heavy branches with posts. Or else the branches would break off! It's just not natural!

 

[Anthony]

Adair,

then when this tree goes into it's exhibition pot, and a few dowels are added to the lower branch/es, and it looks like the image, would it not be natural ?

Please don't get frustrated, it is just a philosophical difference, and being confined to this island, who would care ? Seriously ?

We will test all the information you have supplied, adapt what has to be adapted to our climate and evolve whatever else is needed.
We already have to use concrete or porous clay pots for growing, and most likely display, if we did not adapt, the trees would have be dead a long time ago.

Thank you once again.
More later.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[sorce]

Really enjoying this thread.

Anthony. I think that last tree you posted is great. I have been wanting to see your jbp for a while! Almost looks like a mugo with all those branches!

I hope you islanders can use this Northern advice from Adair to make those lil beauties even better, cuz they are no longer confined to that island! I care!

Thanks guys!

Sorce

 

[Adair M]

Anthony,

Tell me what problem you were having keeping your trees alive that planting them in concrete pots solved.

I suspect the issue was not the pot, but the soil.

 

[Anthony]

Adair,

we go from no rain after Christmas, until say May/June, sometimes July, to bucket a drop.
No trees are in pots deeper than 5" and the soil mix is a simple 80 to 90 %, 5 mm builder's silica based gravel and compost, by volume.

In a stoneware bonsai pot, there isn't enough removal of water, and even the small puddles left behind for sometimes weeks, were hurting the growth of the trees.

The old solution down here was porous earthenware pots, and you do get some porous earthenware Chinese pots that are glazed on the outside, but not underneath. Concrete works the same way, when it is designed to be porous.

Not sure what other soil mix would work ?

Just to inform, the only other soil ingredients imported are Canadian peat moss, a peat moss mix with perlite, perlite, coco-peat, and 12 to 15 mm Leca.
Thanks for having an interest.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Adair M]

Can you post a picture of the silica based gravel you are using with something so I can get a size reference?

And "compost"... I don't really want to turn this thread into a huge soil discussion. I don't use any organic material at all.

Is Trinidad volcanic? Can you get pumice? JBP love pumice.

Here's what I have to say about soil: I'll say this once, I don't want this thread to blow up! JBP do not need any organic material in the soil for nourishment. The soil is there to provide something for the roots to grow into. The soil should drain freely. When you water, water until it drains out the bottom of the pot. It helps to have a pot with lots of drain holes in the bottom. JBP do not like to have "wet feet". That is, where the roots are continuously soggy. Compost tends to hold too much water, and create soggy soil. Which leads to root rot.

On the bottom layer of your pot, spread a layer of larger soil. I use large pumice. This allows the water to drain out through the drain holes. For main mix, I use Boon's Mix. Which is equal parts pumice, lava, akadama. I know you can't get akadama, so you could just do 50/50 lava/pumice. Or use pumice/silica. ANYTHING other than any organic component. Glass beads would be better than any organic!

Feed the tree with organic fertilizer.

So, water the tree in the dry season. Don't water during the rainy season. The issue is during the rainy season, you don't have any control over how much water the tree gets, so the roots could get soggy if there is any organic material in the pot. Removing the compost solves that problem. You will just have to make sure to keep it watered In the dry season.

 

[Anthony]

Adair,

Trinidad is a giant deposit of clay, very similar to Yi Xing.

Watering in the rainy season is by observation and watering in the dry season is once in the evening at 4.30 p.m and twice in the morning [ if needed ] from 5.30 or 6.00 a.m depends on the light.
Pots always drip.

Tests we did showed that if you use an inorganic base, and add the composted oil meal as the Japanese do, you end up with the same as if you mix the % compost in.
We do not get the sheeting problem, as our soil is alive with organisms.
Compost decays to silt and washes out of the pot, so we have never had clogging.

BUT Adair, if we are already getting too many buds, healthy trees and no deaths, why would we want to change anything?
Also our trees range from 27 years to today from seed, nothing purchased from abroad.

Additionally, we also have a base glaze that mimcs the appearance of stoneware, so we can use the porous earthenware, as I explained previously.

I will tomorrow send you an image of the silca based gravel.
Thank you very much for your shared experience.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Anthony]

Adair,

as you requested what is sold to us as 5 mm builder's gravel.

I also forgot to mention that porous containers, by evaporation can lower the soil temperature by 2 to 3 deg F.
In fact after heavy rains, the concrete pot, was observed to drain the water away from the top to the feet, over night.

A stoneware pot would just heat up in our sunlight.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Adair M]

The gravel looks to be a bit large, but ought to work ok.

What is this "composted oil meal" you speak of? Fertilizer?

The Boon mix is an attempt to replicate the soil mix Boon used when he was an apprentice in Japan. The Japanese do not put any organics in their soil mix.

In the Philipeanes, they use bonsai pots. Their climate is similar to yours.

If you're happy with results you're getting, keep doing what you're doing. But, I think it certainly possible to grow JBP in your area in regular bonsai pots.

I have a Ponderosa Pine. A high mountain tree. It likes cooler roots. So I make point to water in the hottest part of the during the summer, which cools the roots.

 

[Anthony]

Hello Adair,

apologies for the late reply, been cleaning up for Christmas. Yes, it's the poo balls stuff you use for fertiliser.
It was interesting to note that these organic fertilisers, have around a 7 for N, and depending in the conversion factors very low P and K, plus trace ingredients.

Do pines live heavily on Nitrogen ?

Cooling of roots, requires water to evaporate, in our rainy season the water would just gather, and pool in the bottom of a stoneware bonsai pot.

Anyhow, here is an older tree, this one has been cleaned, and many tiny candles removed.
One runaway branch at the back.

Apologies for the guy wires, I know it bothers you, but it was ncessary to do, next year will probably be a wire wrap year.
Design will follow later.
Good Day
Anthony

[1] A few years ago, in a stoneware pot

[2] As it is today - side

[3] As it is today, in a concrete pot.

 

[Adair M]

Anthony,

You should remove any "hanging" needles. Those pointing down.

When you wire the traditional way, you can control the tips of the branches. They should be turned up. Not straight up vertical, but up at a 60 degree angle. You can't control them just using guy wires.

 

[Anthony]

Hello Adair,

not to fuss, we will be more intensive with work on these trees next year.

I will show one tree in the growing stage, a cutting that is just starting to grow and a surprise.

Here is the design for the previous tree.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Adair M]

Anthony,

Just for fun discussion:

Your design for this tree has it leaning to the left. But the key branch is on the right. The apex is to the left. Why is the key branch going right?

I think I know what almost all of us Westerners would say: "for balance".

Most Japanese would design the tree with the key branch on the left, the same direction as the trunk is moving, under the theory that the tree is leaning towards the light, so the primary branch of the tree would, too.

I'm not saying either way is right or wrong... Just pointing out differences in design philosophy.

 

[Adair M]

Here is an example of what I was talking about. The trunk moves left, and the key branch is also left.

 

[Anthony]

Hi Adair,

K just got home, he has been on the other side of the island, painting, building and drawing.

His response on the design was simply, that was how the tree grew and the bent branch felt natural that way.

By the way please note, I just water, help repot, fertilise, weed, but don't design.

Now that is a beautiful tree, you have posted there, but for us it is - baby steps - Health first and slowly we see what we can handle.
Please be patient with us, we have no store to buy old stumps or other, so to kill ............
More later.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Adair M]

Anthony, I posted that to discuss design in general.

Years ago, when I first started bonsai, I was taught that the first branch on a slant "went the other way" than the slant. I think many others were taught that way, too.

I just thought it might be a fun discussion since you post these detailed designs.

 

[Adair M]

That tree I posted is a famous bonsai in Japan. It was grown in the ground for many years to develop the trunk, and has been trained as a bonsai in a pot for the past 30 years.

 

[Anthony]

Adair,

as far as I know K uses a simple idea, and as time goes by he just adapts. Those designs are drawn in pencil, and an eraser alters to suit.

It is more design akin to how an oil painting is built, and with all that studio training it is largely instinctive.
You would probably have to be a studio trained painter of the Gammel or Lack schools to be able to fully understand.

It doesn't quite produce work like the Japanese type designs, more adaptation to what you imagine or what is in front of you.
You might wish to look at - The Secret Composition in painting -
available from the Library.
Or - The Mustard Seed Garden - book.

No Fine Artist worth his salt would really copy or try to borrow [ much ] of another man's work.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[jeanluc83]

Anthony, I posted that to discuss design in general.

Years ago, when I first started bonsai, I was taught that the first branch on a slant "went the other way" than the slant. I think many others were taught that way, too.

I just thought it might be a fun discussion since you post these detailed designs.

Take a look at these demonstrations by Ryan Neil. He discusses this idea of balance and tension in bonsai design. I think it comes up in the juniper demonstration but it's worth watching both videos.

2013 AABC convention in Canberra - Ryan Neil Juniper Demonstration

2013 AABC Convention in Canberra - Ryan Neil Scots Pine Demonstration