Japanese white pine short and long needles species

[Driver170]

Ah thanks beebs.

So with a JWP you don't pinch the candles then? And when you cut back you'll get buds at the cut sight?

So why is every article about JWP saying you pinch the candle

 

[BeebsBonsai]

Ah thanks beebs.

So with a JWP you don't pinch the candles then? And when you cut back you'll get buds at the cut sight?

So why is every article about JWP saying you pinch the candle

Driver,

On the articles i am unsure. The only thing i could hazard a guess at would be that zuishos are so heavily cultivated that the name jwp has become something people use for them. Im not particularly knowledgeable on the different cultivars of jwp. But when you listen again thats what he was saying "zuishos are short" and "all other jwp are long.

As far as pruning goes, the candle you prune will die back a bit and then the new buds will produce candles next year. At least thats what i have seen with my limber. Thats why its always important to leave at least 2 sets of needles. Two chances for buds to form. If you leave one and it dies back past the needles you may have a dead tip.

Beebs

 

[Driver170]

Driver,

On the articles i am unsure. The only thing i could hazard a guess at would be that zuishos are so heavily cultivated that the name jwp has become something people use for them. Im not particularly knowledgeable on the different cultivars of jwp. But when you listen again thats what he was saying "zuishos are short" and "all other jwp are long.

As far as pruning goes, the candle you prune will die back a bit and then the new buds will produce candles next year. At least thats what i have seen with my limber. Thats why its always important to leave at least 2 sets of needles. Two chances for buds to form. If you leave one and it dies back past the needles you may have a dead tip.

Beebs

Hi beebs.

Gotcha !!!

Now if we prune back into last years growth will it still produce buds? Because mind on that video we are talking about Ryan accidentally takes the whole candle off, and he says it's effectively dead. But why though if buds can sprout where the leafs are?

Slightly confused but i'm getting there.

Vernon

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

@Driver170 and @BeebsBonsai, post up some good pix of your JWPs and several of us who have some years of experience with JWP can help you with next steps. This is starting to look like the blind leading the blind here.

It's really not that complicated if you understand terminology of technique, plant parts, and timing. Right now in the middle of summer, there isn't a lot you should be doing to JWP except maybe gently brushing out the 3-year-old needles that are turning yellow, and watching the water. And @BeebsBonsai, if you were asking how to water a JBP last Tuesday, it will take at least until next Tuesday to figure out how to water JWP.

 

[Driver170]

Sorry its not much

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/jwp-pinus-parviflora-negishi-starter-tree.28130/

I'm wanting to buy a JWP thats established at a bonsai shop close to me

 

[BeebsBonsai]

@Driver170 and @BeebsBonsai, post up some good pix of your JWPs and several of us who have some years of experience with JWP can help you with next steps. This is starting to look like the blind leading the blind here.

It's really not that complicated if you understand terminology of technique, plant parts, and timing. Right now in the middle of summer, there isn't a lot you should be doing to JWP except maybe gently brushing out the 3-year-old needles that are turning yellow, and watching the water. And @BeebsBonsai, if you were asking how to water a JBP last Tuesday, it will take at least until next Tuesday to figure out how to water JWP.

Hey bud, so much hostility. All i was doing was explaining where his confusion came from in the Ryan Neil stream by explaining what Ryan said in his own words. Ill back out of helping here. I was just going to call in reinforcements anyway. Lol.

 

[Adair M]

Hey bud, so much hostility. All i was doing was explaining where his confusion came from in the Ryan Neil stream by explaining what Ryan said in his own words. Ill back out of helping here. I was just going to call in reinforcements anyway. Lol.

No, Brian is not being hostile! He is truely one one of the best sources of info here on the Nut. He definitely knows his stuff.

I'm thinking he was getting confused with this thread. As am I. I've been trying to stay out of it, frankly, because I feel that you won't understand what I'm saying.

These Ryan videos have confused many people. I'm not saying they're wrong, but to really understand what he's talking about, you have to have a basic understanding of single flush vs double flush pines, JBP and JWP. Until you understand the basics, the advanced stuff will just get you all mixed up.

When learning math, we start with addition and subtraction, then go on to multiplication... we don't start with differential calculus.

I'm not trying to be insulting, but I think it's best to start with some basic definitions. Some of the words commonly used by bonsai people may not be "horticulturally correct", but it's the language we use.

So, here are some terms:

Candle: the growth that comes from buds on a pine.

Spring Candle: the first growth of the year on a JBP.

Summer Candle: the growth that arises after decandling.

Decandling: cutting the spring candles off near their base, thus removing all the new needles. Some amount of stem may remain, but no needles.

Pinching back: shortening a candle by removing some part of the stem, but leaving some needles.

Breaking back: similiar to Pinching, usually performed on extending candles before needles have appeared.

Shoots: technically candles become shoots once needles appear. Typically when the spring candles are decandled, they have needles, so they are shoots. But we still use the term "decandle" when removing the entirety of the new growth.

Neck: that part of the candle or shoot between the base and the first set of needles. There are no buds on the neck.

Needle buds: at the base of each set of needles there are buds, usually dormant, that may develop into shoots. These are usually very weak.

Secondary buds: at the base of the spring buds, particurly on JBP, there are dormant buds that will grow if the primary bud or Candle is damaged. These are sometimes called "adventitious" buds.

Technically, Needle buds are also "adventitious", as they are dormant, usually, until some damage occurs to the primary buds/candles.

 

[BeebsBonsai]

No, Brian is not being hostile! He is truely one one of the best sources of info here on the Nut. He definitely knows his stuff.

I'm thinking he was getting confused with this thread. As am I. I've been trying to stay out of it, frankly, because I feel that you won't understand what I'm saying.

These Ryan videos have confused many people. I'm not saying they're wrong, but to really understand what he's talking about, you have to have a basic understanding of single flush vs double flush pines, JBP and JWP. Until you understand the basics, the advanced stuff will just get you all mixed up.

When learning math, we start with addition and subtraction, then go on to multiplication... we don't start with differential calculus.

I'm not trying to be insulting, but I think it's best to start with some basic definitions. Some of the words commonly used by bonsai people may not be "horticulturally correct", but it's the language we use.

So, here are some terms:

Candle: the growth that comes from buds on a pine.

Spring Candle: the first growth of the year on a JBP.

Summer Candle: the growth that arises after decandling.

Decandling: cutting the spring candles off near their base, thus removing all the new needles. Some amount of stem may remain, but no needles.

Pinching back: shortening a candle by removing some part of the stem, but leaving some needles.

Breaking back: similiar to Pinching, usually performed on extending candles before needles have appeared.

Shoots: technically candles become shoots once needles appear. Typically when the spring candles are decandled, they have needles, so they are shoots. But we still use the term "decandle" when removing the entirety of the new growth.

Neck: that part of the candle or shoot between the base and the first set of needles. There are no buds on the neck.

Needle buds: at the base of each set of needles there are buds, usually dormant, that may develop into shoots. These are usually very weak.

Secondary buds: at the base of the spring buds, particurly on JBP, there are dormant buds that will grow if the primary bud or Candle is damaged. These are sometimes called "adventitious" buds.

Technically, Needle buds are also "adventitious", as they are dormant, usually, until some damage occurs to the primary buds/candles.

I was half kidding about Brian. I did throw in a lol. He jumped in right when i was hoping someone would. I know all of those terms except for breaking and pinching differences. I hate getting involved in reading forums and not contributing. If i just ask qs all the time and never try to help i feel like im stealing. Ill try to avoid jumping in past my knowledge point. His point was well-taken and i understood what he was saying. No disrespect meant to brian. Hes answered a few of my qs. Why would you break vs pinch? Or is it just the timing of it that changes the action?

 

[Adair M]

Timing, mostly.

Often "breaking" is done on those really strong candles that are probably going to get decandled later. So why bother? To keep the growth in check and prevent unwanted thickening in the area. Typically up at the apex.

Pinching back is usually done on JWP when the needles are showing, but they are still in a tight bundle. The 5 needles in a bundle haven't separated yet. It's used to balance a strong shoot to make it the same as a nearby weaker shoot.

I haven't watched those Ryan videos in a while. I have regular JWP as well as Zuisho, and another rare dwarf variety. I'll have to see what he's talking about.

 

[BeebsBonsai]

Timing, mostly.

Often "breaking" is done on those really strong candles that are probably going to get decandled later. So why bother? To keep the growth in check and prevent unwanted thickening in the area. Typically up at the apex.

Pinching back is usually done on JWP when the needles are showing, but they are still in a tight bundle. The 5 needles in a bundle haven't separated yet. It's used to balance a strong shoot to make it the same as a nearby weaker shoot.

I haven't watched those Ryan videos in a while. I have regular JWP as well as Zuisho, and another rare dwarf variety. I'll have to see what he's talking about.

"Pinching for design" archived stream. Thats where he talks abot it when pinching a shore pine. He was responding to a question on what pines are considered short needle. And what are long needle species.

 

[fourteener]

Here is my simple understanding.

JBP cut the candle at a certain point in the season and you will get a second set of buds that will produce foliage in the same year.

Single flush pine: pinch/twist the new candle in half before it starts pruducing needles and you will get backbudding that will grow next year( not this year like the black pine, to me that is the major difference)Thus you can't cut the whole candle off, let part of it grow and pull energy through the branch so you can get the buds you want. Over time you can chase a Scot Pines foliage back toward the trunk the next year as all the buds are extending their new candles, repeat the process. More ramification, more candles, smaller growth.

My added experience is that if you get a lot of back budding during a summer, and your Scot pine is ready for a repot in the next spring, your needles will be really short that next growing season.

Not sure about JWP. I only have one so I don't experiment much. But it works with a Scot.

In short, cutting black pine allows for second smaller flush of new growth. Pinching candle in half on a single flush pine produces lots of buds that won't grow til next year.