JBP Fall Update & Fall work questions

[Brian Van Fleet]

I have stayed away from pines because they seem a little more complicated and difficult to be perfectly honest. I really want to try to work with one but the more I read about the care and techniques the more I push them away for now.not sure if my impression of this is correct but the the difficulty level of pines seem to be on the higher side in bonsai compared to most other genus.

Not really more difficult, just need to do it for a couple years to understand anatomy, cause-effect, and timing. it helps to start with a more-developed pine to shorten the learning curve. Besides, you have access to some of the best around with Rodney Clemons, Atlanta Bonsai Club, Plant City, Adair, Dave and others...jump on in!

 

[Adair M]

We work on JBP three times a year.

Repot in late winter/ early spring. If it needs reporting.

Early to mid summer we decandle.

Fall, we pull needles, and select which of the new buds that grew after decandling that we to keep. This is also the best time to wire and style.


Conveniently, I teach classes on JBP at exactly these times at Plant City Bonsai in Clermont. The next time is Saturday November 15. There will be two sessions: the morning will be needle pulling and bud selection. The afternoon session will be on wiring. Copper wire, preferably!

I've been doing these for the past two years and they are very popular. Call Steve now to reserve a spot. If we get excess demand, I'll add another day.

I guarantee you will learn more than you thought possible about JBP! I've had many returning students, and they look forward to returning each time.

 

[Derek91]

I will give Steve a call and see about his class/workshop schedule.I met him last week and I asked him about classes and he said the next one was booked. Which he says doesn't usually happen. This time of year I am constantly in the woods hunting with any time I have so I'm not is sure if I can make the one on the 15th work. After November( which is like prime time lol) I am going to try to get in some of the classes that plant city has to offer.

 

[Adair M]

I didn't know I'm sold out already!

Maybe we'll have to do another class. I'll get with Steve to schedule.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Thank you Brian for a very detailed, spot on description of JBP care. Well done.

I would like to add something, the techniques of balancing and needle pulling are for refinement. The original post was about a tree that had not received its initial styling.

The apical buds that get activated when candles are pruned in early summer can be activated 2 or even 3 years after the season they developed. If a new tree that had never been styled had not been candle pruned, you can when styling prune back, more than one years growth, as you nicely showed in post #12. Peter Tea recommended keeping old needles to several years back on new trees that have not been styled, in order to be able to do exactly this type of pruning when you do decide on the style of the tree.

So my caveat is - only for a tree that has not been styled, keep old needles in sections that you might want to reduce a branch to, so that you will be able to do the reduction. If you go through and remove needles without plans for future cut backs, you will loose the ability to cut back. If you eliminate all the 2 year and older needles, and then realize you need budding back on bare 3 year old wood, sometimes you get lucky, but often you don't.

So for a tree that has not been styled yet, it is ok to keep a lot of needles on branches you might cut back more than one season's worth of growth, doing so will preserve design possibilities. Do this, even though the tree will not be ideally balanced. Balancing vigor is important once you know where you are going with a tree's design. It is a refinement activity that needs to happen, but it can be done later in a tree's development.

Brian your description of how to strengthen a weak branch is excellent. And the advice above does not negate the importance of any of your comments. Bud selection is a very significant step in balancing growth, this doesn't always get emphasized, you did explain it well.

 

[nover18]

Great stuff. Just a question. How vigorous can one be with this pruning? Also, do you recommend doing this if you repot in the spring?

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Leo, you are right on...thanks for explaining in simple terms why I did not advise to remove old needles, as their latent buds could be useful later. However, even an unstyled pine will benefit from this fall work in preparation for work later.

nover18: you should be exactly as vigorous as I showed above if you're working with a healthy JBP...that is, to leave 15-10 pairs of needles on each of this year's candles, and reduce each terminal down to a pair of evenly-sized buds throughout the tree. This was more of a "technical manual" than just an example. If you're experienced, you can get away with leaving fewer. It is fine to do this work and still repot in the spring.

The work I described was done on this tree just a couple weeks ago. Notice the even distribution throughout.

 

[qwade]

We work on JBP three times a year.

Fall, we pull needles, and select which of the new buds that grew after decandling that we to keep. This is also the best time to wire and style.

.

Hi
I was interested if you could comment on fall bud selection. Specifically on my assumption that bud selection would be better in early spring in case of any loss in a harsh winter.

I work with Parvs and mugo as well as nigra and JBP/Thunbergii

 

[Adair M]

"Bud selection" is actually a misnomer. It should be called "shoot selection".

When we decandle, usually where we once had a single candle, we have multiple new smaller candles in the fall. We want to keep just two, so we eliminate the extras.

Brian likes to nip them early, before they've really developed. Boon prefers that they be allowed to develop fully, and wait until the needles have hardened off in the fall/early winter time period. This is usually the best time to wire and style JBP. So, as you're pulling needles, you can examine each branch and determine how you're going to wire it out. Then eliminate the extra shoots (buds). Then wire.

Ive never had a situation where some shoots were damaged by cold and others weren't. I've lost whole trees to the cold, but never individual branches.

 

[Adair M]

By the way, the techniques we're discussing here apply only to Japanese Black Pine, japanese Red Pine, and Virginia Pine.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

"Bud selection" is actually a misnomer. It should be called "shoot selection".

Qwade: Careful to not confuse the terminology as it pertains to this thread, where fall "bud selection" specifically refers to selecting which terminal buds remain, of those that are set to grow next year.

Adair is talking about reducing shoots that grow as the result of summer candle-cutting in post 29.

 

[qwade]

Thanks All
Although pretty new to the art of bonsai I believe I do understand the process here.( More in theory than in practice)

My thinking, "winter is coming"!! Especially after the harsh winter last year my thought is---- cut/pinch nothing until after the winter passes.

I guess Adair sums it up best by noting that he has never lost a partial amount of buds. it usually all or none. I'm guessing that if I left 5 second growth buds on a branch the chances of losing just 2 of the 5 are slim. Which would be my reasoning for waiting till spring.

Now I assume that the advantage for fall selection is that it is more convenient for the artist. I would further assume that it makes no difference to the tree or its development if the buds are selected late fall or early spring. Comments?

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Now I assume that the advantage for fall selection is that it is more convenient for the artist. I would further assume that it makes no difference to the tree or its development if the buds are selected late fall or early spring. Comments?

Fall bud selection, as described in my posts above, is done around this time because they will be formed by now, but they will still "grow" some throughout the late fall and early spring. Since it's all about balance, I prefer to balance sooner rather than later. In the earlier stages of development, it won't make a lot of difference if it's done anytime between now and March.

 

[qwade]

Since it's all about balance, I prefer to balance sooner rather than later. In the earlier stages of development, it won't make a lot of difference if it's done anytime between now and March.

Thanks that is what I am trying to get a grip on. Reasons for fall selection. I've noticed it is customary to select in fall but it didn't make sense. Nice series of posts on this process by the way.

 

[Adair M]

We wait until this time of the year because until the needles are hardened off, they are very fragile. Wiring before they've hardened off makes it almost certain you'll damage needles. And you won't know how until about two weeks later.

Now, you do want to have the tree wired when spring starts. That's when the tree will will be growing, putting on new wood. That's the process that makes the branch "set"in position.

You can theoretically wire any time during the winter after the needles have hardened off.

But, you don't want to wire branches you don't want, so we eliminate the excess shoots in the fall before we wire.

Your fear of losing a few random shoots here and there due to cold is unwarranted.

JBP look best in the winter. Style in late fall, prune the new shoots back to two at each terminal, and wire.

 

[RickMartin]

We do this work with JBP because we CAN. The ability we have to so carefully control the growth of JBP is what makes them so responsive.

This process is what we call "refinement". Development of short needles, short internodes between branches, dense growth, foliage close to the trunk, no hanging needles, etc.

Once a tree begins "refinement", it won't build trunk girth any more. The bark will develop, but don't expect to fatten any trunks.

If I still have a sacrifice branch. Can I start refinement on my lower branches and still get some trunk thickness in the process.

Rick

 

[Dav4]

If I still have a sacrifice branch. Can I start refinement on my lower branches and still get some trunk thickness in the process.

Rick

Exactly...the sacrifice branch grows the trunk while you start to develop/refine the future branches without having them thicken excessively.

 

[RickMartin]

Exactly...the sacrifice branch grows the trunk while you start to develop/refine the future branches without having them thicken excessively.

Thanks Dave. I thought I could but wanted to make sure. I have a lot of low branches and the tree grew very vigorous this growing season so its like a jungle down there.

Rick

 

[Grant Hamby]

it helps to start with a more-developed pine to shorten the learning curve.

Are there any good sources for this kind of beginner JBP material that I can order?

 

[Adair M]

Are there any good sources for this kind of beginner JBP material that I can order?

George Muranska on eBay sells JBP that he has grown in the ground. They usually have 1 1/2 inch trunks, low branches, and are reasonably priced. About $120. Great trees for learning JBP techniques.