JBP whip help

[BonsaixDad]

I’ve had this skinny little fella for a few months, just been watering and fertilizing and clipping a couple buds here and there to prevent whirling. I know at this stage it is primed and ready for structural wiring, my main question to those of you who are experienced with these is, what do you do with all those thick long needles that are very much in the way??

Another question i have is what sport of pruning techniques if any should i be committing to? My plan is to maybe let the longest branch on the right be my leader, should i let the upright portion go on as a sacrificial leader? Or would it be best to just bend the hell out of the main trunk line. Basically looking for the quickest route to a healthy, thick and gnarly bonsai, maybe shohin style. Any and all tips and suggestions are greatly appreciated!

 

[Nera]

Pluck some of the needles along the lower parts at the base and then do open wiring (wrap the wire loosely) over the needles towards the ends, which would simply be a guide for the branch ends.

 

[leatherback]

Normally you would consider allowing the leader to run, without sidebranches. The lowest 2 or 3 branches you keep and those will become your bonsai. By allowing the leader to run, you fatten the base. THese small low branches do not fatten and give yuo the start of your bonsai once the base is pretty fat, and sacrificed..

 

[BonsaixDad]

Normally you would consider allowing the leader to run, without sidebranches. The lowest 2 or 3 branches you keep and those will become your bonsai. By allowing the leader to run, you fatten the base. THese small low branches do not fatten and give yuo the start of your bonsai once the base is pretty fat, and sacrificed..

View attachment 600876

Nice! That looks like what i had in mind doing something cool with that long side branch as my keeper apex. Should i consider wiring this year?

 

[BonsaixDad]

Pluck some of the needles along the lower parts at the base and then do open wiring (wrap the wire loosely) over the needles towards the ends, which would simply be a guide for the branch ends.

So loosely wire the needles as in this years growth needles? Also how much should i pluck/leave alone of the big bulgy needles?

 

[Wulfskaar]

Great growth!

 

[Nera]

So loosely wire the needles as in this years growth needles? Also how much should i pluck/leave alone of the big bulgy needles?

I would pluck up to this point, and loosely wire everything above the line. The needles are what feed the tree and also where you'll likely get side branches, so you rather want to keep most of them. However, as Leatherback said, if you want to rather fatten up the trunk then this would become your sacrifice branch and then wiring is not necessary.

 

[Nera]

Just to add, think about what your end goal is for your pine in order to decide what to do from this point - do you want a nicely developed Shohin size pine? Are you wanting a larger size pine overall? Either of those would require the sacrifice branch principal. Or maybe you are okay with a more natural look, developing the trunk and overall size at a slower pace over time (JBPs do grow rather quickly anyway) and in that case, no sacrifice branch is needed. It all depends on the look you want.

 

[Shibui]

Nice! That looks like what i had in mind doing something cool with that long side branch as my keeper apex. Should i consider wiring this year?

Not sure that's what @leatherback had in mind but I'll let him come back to explain.
I would have given a similar virt but red = remove. Dark green = sacrifice. Light green is the branches that will eventually become your bonsai.
But that's not the only option. Wire and bend can sometimes give good results too.

When planning pine development we need to recognise that the current needles give the impression of growth and branching but are only temporary. In a couple of years all those needles will die and fall off leaving bare sections with no option for branching. Branching usually only comes from the nodes (where seasonal growth stops and starts) That's where the whorls of branches form. In between those sections will be bare. Try to look forward in time and see the areas that now have needles as bare trunk then ask whether those bare sections will be OK.

If you think the existing internodes are OK as far as length or that bending those areas will compact the length enough then go ahead and wire some bends in.
It takes some practice to get wired bends to look natural and interesting. Lazy S bends rarely look good. Wiring will give you bends in the trunk and branches but cannot give taper in those areas.

The only ways I know to get taper into a tree are pruning and/or sacrifice branches in appropriate locations to thicken lower parts but not upper parts. Pruning also seems to give us more natural looking bends more easily than wiring alone.

If you think you can cope with trunk and branches with less taper feel free to wire and bend great sections. If you like the look of aggressive taper you'll need to consider more pruning as a development tool.

 

[leatherback]

Not sure that's what @leatherback had in mind but I'll let him come back to explain.
I would have given a similar virt but red = remove. Dark green = sacrifice. Light green is the branches that will eventually become your bonsai.

that was my thinking indeed.

 

[BonsaixDad]

Not sure that's what @leatherback had in mind but I'll let him come back to explain.
I would have given a similar virt but red = remove. Dark green = sacrifice. Light green is the branches that will eventually become your bonsai.
But that's not the only option. Wire and bend can sometimes give good results too.

When planning pine development we need to recognise that the current needles give the impression of growth and branching but are only temporary. In a couple of years all those needles will die and fall off leaving bare sections with no option for branching. Branching usually only comes from the nodes (where seasonal growth stops and starts) That's where the whorls of branches form. In between those sections will be bare. Try to look forward in time and see the areas that now have needles as bare trunk then ask whether those bare sections will be OK.

If you think the existing internodes are OK as far as length or that bending those areas will compact the length enough then go ahead and wire some bends in.
It takes some practice to get wired bends to look natural and interesting. Lazy S bends rarely look good. Wiring will give you bends in the trunk and branches but cannot give taper in those areas.

The only ways I know to get taper into a tree are pruning and/or sacrifice branches in appropriate locations to thicken lower parts but not upper parts. Pruning also seems to give us more natural looking bends more easily than wiring alone.

If you think you can cope with trunk and branches with less taper feel free to wire and bend great sections. If you like the look of aggressive taper you'll need to consider more pruning as a development tool.

Thank you for the clarification! I definitely misunderstood the photo edit. Oddly enough the red removal was what i was leaning towards in following the natural movement of the lower trunk line up through that side branch as a leader and wiring for more exaggeration. But thats extremely interesting to keep the lowest budding branches and use the rest as sacrificial growth for a shohin design!

So i can make the best educated decision on what path to take, what is the idea of getting rid of the long side branch if i decide not to have that be the new apex? Does that stop the thickening of the upper portion and let more thickening and development happen down below?

 

[BonsaixDad]

Also another question, if pruning for shape was the technique here, what would be the best timing to perform that work? Post flush harden? Spring before new growth? Anytime?

 

[Shibui]

Oddly enough the red removal was what i was leaning towards in following the natural movement of the lower trunk line up through that side branch as a leader and wiring for more exaggeration.

That trunk design is certainly another option but it will still leave you with a couple of long bare sections on the trunk. If you think those bare parts will be acceptable or if you think you can wire enough bends into those parts to disguise them you can go for it.
There's no harm wiring and bending to see what you can do. Those lower shoots can always be a fall back position if it doesn't turn out as well as expected.

If just going for trunk thickening you could keep both the upper branches to assist with thickening the lower part. It won't matter if that fork over thickens because you plan to remove it eventually. Just keep an eye on those important lower shoots. The tree is already allocating most effort to the upper branches and the low shoots are slow and weaker which is normal but with 2 large sacrifice branches growing well it's possible the tree could abandon those low shoots. If they start to look sickly you need to stop the sacrifice branches ASAP, even if the desired trunk thickness has not been achieved.

I prune pines for shape any time of year. In Spring and Summer, response is quick. Late summer through winter response is delayed but will happen as soon as growth begins. Not sure if there's any seasonal differences in cooler locations like yours.
We get slightly different responses to pruning at different times of the year. Pruning before spring flush gives strong new growth with longer bare 'necks' on the shoots. Early summer pruning (decandling time) gives smaller new shoots with short necks and shorter needles. Late summer through winter gives similar new growth to early Spring pruning because that's when the new shoots will develop.

 

[RJG2]

The 6 year JBP from seed contest threads will give you a great deal of info. Here's the thread from the winner:

Thread 'Ryceman3's 6yr JBP Contest Entry'

Jun 25, 2018

And so it begins ... well, for me anyway. Being from the Southern Hemisphere I am patiently waiting for July 1, and have spent the past month or more looking for JBP seeds to work with. They are not so plentiful in this part of the world, and our quarantine laws make importing seed from overseas a no-go zone, so it took a bit of extra effort but I have come up with some.

I managed to get a few from 3 sources.

A local eBay site had the cultivar JBP "Thunderhead", which I think may not be as good for shohin as the growth (from all reports) is a bit coarse - but since this was all I could...

• Ryceman3
• Replies: 168
• Forum: The 2018 Six Year Japanese Black Pine Contest

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