JWP - is this normal?

DamianTrimboli

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I'm in Buenos Aires, Southern hemisphere, Summer here - I have wired and styled a JWP 2 months ago (not a hot spring). It was going really well until some days ago, I'm noticing browning of the old needles, and also a bit of browning in some new needles as well.

Is this common because is getting hot? is this a fungus? If this is really bad, what should I do to save it?

During Styling:

DIMG_8487.jpg

After styling:

b8c5665b-a92c-4d7f-b0a8-31266e269173.JPG

Now:

IMG_4828.jpgIMG_4862.jpgIMG_5747.jpgIMG_5011.jpg
 

Japonicus

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I killed a few small branches at the ends, growing tips, due to wiring before Autumn
on my JWP unknown Azuma... mostly where I had bent the growth tips upwards, so the branch(es)
died back to the next secondary branch. Until you're sure what's going on, I would avoid much bending
although gentle wiring should be safe. 2 months ago here in the N in the US was perfect timing to wire.
 

Adair M

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I killed a few small branches at the ends, growing tips, due to wiring before Autumn
on my JWP unknown Azuma... mostly where I had bent the growth tips upwards, so the branch(es)
died back to the next secondary branch. Until you're sure what's going on, I would avoid much bending
although gentle wiring should be safe. 2 months ago here in the N in the US was perfect timing to wire.
Indeed, the time to wire JWP is early fall. When the old needles begin to yellow. That’s when the new needles have “hardened off”. The new needles will also drop the sheath around the base of the needle cluster. Until that time, the new needles are simply too fragile. Handling them damages the area where they connect to the stem. The wire isn’t what damages them, it’s handling of the needles as you wire that damages them.

Check the buds. If the buds are healthy, it may recover. If the buds are dry, the twig is dead.

So, JWP, are single flush pines. What grows in the spring is what you get. The needles harden off by late summer, the old needles start to yellow. That’s when it’s safe to wire. JBP, are usually decandled in summer, so the second growth is still growing when the JWP have finished. The usual program is to work the JWP in early fall, and the JBP in late fall when their needles have hardened off.
 

DamianTrimboli

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I can’t see the buds because are covered by the sheath, so I can’t see if they are ok or not :/
So bad timing I guess.. this doesn’t look like a fungus, right?

Do you still think that I can save some branches of the tree or do you think is dying?
 

Adair M

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I can’t see the buds because are covered by the sheath, so I can’t see if they are ok or not :/
So bad timing I guess.. this doesn’t look like a fungus, right?

Do you still think that I can save some branches of the tree or do you think is dying?
That branch that is in the first “now” picture, may be dead. The others look ok. You may lose some twigs.

Take a look at the third “now” picture. Do you see the little short brown sheaths at the base of the needles? The fact that it is still there says those needles are not yet hardened off. It completely falls off when they are. When it does, you will be able to get a better look at the terminal buds. If you have green buds, it will be ok. If the buds are dried up, or there just doesn’t seem to be one, it’s dead, or soon will be.

While I have your attention, let’s go back and look at picture number 1 in the “now”. Your wiring is a little heavy handed. There’s three spirals of wire on one branch, one heavy and two thin. And another small branch has two wires. Perhaps it would have been neater to have used a wire a little heavier than the thin wire as to not have to double up? (I prefer using copper rather than aluminum so a thin wire holds better.)

Regardless, that same branch has four small branches coming from one point. Ideally, each crotch should only have two branches. I think two of those branches should have been pruned away. I know, it makes the tree sparse, but it will back bud. And if each year you get two new branches at each terminal, it doesn’t take very long to get a lot of terminals.

If I were working on that branch, I would keep the two side by side twigs, and remove the one on top, and especially the one on the bottom (the one with the three wires).

Look at these two diagrams:

Before:0210138A-D0E2-4E9B-91BE-2DDC85858868.jpeg

After:D33E263F-ABF1-4C9C-A284-F409FC497A37.jpeg

See how it’s almost always just two branches at each intersection? EXCEPT!!!, look in the very middle. There’s a place with three! One is the continuation of the main line, one goes to the left, and one goes... up! It looks like it goes to the right, but it goes up, and runs in the same direction as the main line. You need to do this every so often to give height to your pads. These little “third” branches are called “top” branches. And they serve to give height to the pads, and they will provide a place you can cut back to a few years from now when the main line gets too long!

Anyway, you seem to have a good eye for style, and I hope your tree recovers. I think it will live, but you may lose a few branches and twigs. Next time, wire in the fall!

Good luck!
 

DamianTrimboli

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Hi! Thank you for your help, but I think the tree is going worse each day... isn't possible that it might be a fungus?

What I'm starting to see now is the buds, they are getting bigger and they are green, so i think that is good news..

Today I carefully unwired the tips (by cutting the wire) to let the sap flow better.
Also, maybe it's my imagination, but is it possible that some buds are starting to open? Does sometimes a second flush on white pines exist?

IMG_0245.jpgIMG_1202.jpgIMG_1455.jpgIMG_1457.jpgIMG_1458.jpgIMG_1532.jpgIMG_2812.jpgIMG_2957.jpgIMG_9214.jpg
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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I don't know anything about white pines. But I have a mugo that continuously flushes because it's super stressed. It's pushing juvenile needles instead of regular ones.
Those buds don't form candles, but they just grow outwards while producing needles. It has been going on since april 2018 and some branches are finally going dormant. That might explain what's happening in your white pine.
 

Adair M

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You’re STILL messing with this tree while the needles have not yet hardened off! Leave it alone!

The damage you are seeing is the result of handling the needles (wiring) and now unwiring while the needles are still fragile. It takes a while for the damage to fully show.

Buds form for the next season after growth for the year is complete. So, what you are seeing is the tree is setting next year’s buds.

I have seen, occasionally, a particularly warm fall stimulate some buds to start to grow. But then the cold weather stops them, and then they just wait for spring. Again, it’s best to just leave things alone.

Once the sheaths are gone completely, you could pick off the dead needles with tweezers.
 

DamianTrimboli

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Thanks! I unwired it because I saw that it was getting worse and I was afraid of having some wires tight, I did it with extreme caution without touching the needles.

Should I be fertilizing the tree? Keeping in the shadow or sun? Misting with water? Misting with water and antitranspirant oil? Superthrive?

What can I do besides leaving it alone that can stop this further browning? The browning starts at the tips of the needles.. isn't it a sympthon of fungus?

just for your information, I have: propamocarb, aliette, mancozeb, daconil, carbendazim, phyton-27 and a couple more of fungicides.

I have a cedar that i'm 100% sure is dying because a fungus, It first started to appear last autum and I could stop it, but now re-appeared and there's no way to stop it, it's killing all the branches. Symthons are not really similar to the JWP, but they are different trees and I'm still afraid the same fungs attacked the JWP.

This is the cedar:

IMG_7800.jpgIMG_9109.jpgIMG_9743.jpg

And for example, this a shoot in the JWP that I don't remember if it was there before:

IMG_6813.jpg
 

Dav4

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I don't think your issue with the pine is fungus, but more likely the wiring/styling mid summer... those branches are drying out due to damage to the cambium. The damage is done. The only thing I'd do now is protect it from mid day sun and hope that some of the foliage on those branches remain green.
 

pawelo73

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JWP,JBP, JRP without winter dormancy, -10°C, IMO = DEAD
 

DamianTrimboli

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hmm.. pawelo73.. we don't have -10ºC here in Buenos Aires in Winter... 0ºC is usually the less we get, more usually 5ºC.. I know they like cold winter dormancy, but my tree is here in Buenos Aires since at least 10 years.
And I know of 80-100 years old JBP (80 years old here in Buenos Aires, from seed or imported) that are pretty well.

Its not like mugo pines that I learnt the hard way that after 3 years in Buenos Aires, they die... those really need a cold cold winter.
 

0soyoung

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JWP,JBP, JRP without winter dormancy, -10°C, IMO = DEAD
No. They, JWP and JRP, just need to be below about 5C for an extended time (i.e., several hundred hours, cumulatively). JBP maybe not at all, even though it is necessary to affect shortened needle lengths with decandling techniques.
 
Last edited:

Shibui

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JBP, JRP and Mugho all growing quite well here with winter min temps just around freezing many nights, once or twice each winter down to -3C. Melbourne area rarely dips below freezing and all these pines grow successfully down there.
Good to know that JWP do not need much chilling either. One past trial with JWP failed but I thought it may have been due to our very hot, dry summers. I have had some JWP from seed for 4 or 5 years now and they seem OK though slow.
 
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I don't like those fussy female white pines, or they don't like me. Watch out with overwatering. You have a rather nice specimen, do the correct time at the right moment and all will be fine.
 

Adair M

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I don't like those fussy female white pines, or they don't like me. Watch out with overwatering. You have a rather nice specimen, do the correct time at the right moment and all will be fine.
You hit the key: “Do the correct thing at the right moment”. Timing is everything.
 

DamianTrimboli

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Hey! Thank you all..
I think its going worse and worse, the green buds that recently that had recently appeared (like the ones i'd shown on previous pics), i think they are turning brown now...
any idea? :/IMG_0378.jpgIMG_1832.jpgIMG_2439.jpgIMG_2446.jpgIMG_3689 2.jpgIMG_4280.jpgIMG_5132.jpg
 

0soyoung

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No buds = no more tree.

You are just now seeing the effects of things you did quite some time ago. Such is the way with pines and conifers in general.

Keep trying until you get it right.
 

DamianTrimboli

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The buds should be kept green until spring?
I'm asking because in other kind of pines the buds change colors, beige, white, brown.
And I think I remember JWP buds turning green from brown when they get bigger before opening.
 
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