Large Trident Maple & First Post

[snowsurf125]

Hey everyone, this is my first post. I've been a member for a year or two and have been following a lot of the posts. That being said, here goes.

I recently bought this quite large Trident Maple, Acer buergerianum. I still consider myself quite new to bonsai, having only been doing it for about a few years now. I saw this tree at my teachers nursery and despite level of expertise, I could not pass up it up at the price I was offered.

The tree was grown in a a growing field for about 25 years, I believe. It was collected on Feb 26, 2011. It is in a 25" pot. It is 48" from soil to highest tip. It is 8.5" wide at the the base, and 6" wide at about 5" above the soil. Most of the large branches are 1/2"-1" wide.

Any thoughts on the tree? I've been thinking about trying to do a little minimal wiring to try and start pulling some main branches down because its going to take a few years, but I'm trying to be patient and give it another year to get its feet back under it. Any thoughts on that? I have a decent idea of where its going (seems pretty obvious), but will be getting as many opinions as possible before I do any major work. I am open to comments and criticisms... even if its about that particular beer. It was given to me, but I enjoyed it.

Thanks for the feedback.

 

[kmdesigns]

Very nice piece of material. That sucker is huge, I'm very jealous. Pic 3 would be my choice for the front . Personally, I would chop it flat right below where all those branches shoot out and let it back bud to start a new leader or if one of those branches will work use that as the leader. After a year or so carve the flat top at an angle to allow the leader to grow and seal up that big wound. Then another 5 or 10 years of growth, branch placement and maybe a root graft here or there and you'd have one sick, sick maple. Again that's just what I would do if this big sucker were in my yard.

Thanks for showing your tree its got tons of potential. Welcome to the forum.

 

[Ang3lfir3]

1) there is nothing wrong with that particular beer ...

2) this surprised even me but I actually prefer the "back" as the front ... which is weird because I would normally want the dead section in the front.... but the "back" has such great strength and nebari that I couldn't pass it up.

3) being as its a trident you can remove a lot of the large branching and regrow some of it... that is not to say you shouldn't try and use some of what is there but you might consider lowering them and then cutting back once that has taken... on further inspection this tree is actually really ready for some great work... dealing with the central leader a bit might take some time... but man its off to a great start...

I can see this tree with a really great open oak tree styling .... a great spooky top... after that the current front may also become a great front... two fronts for the price of one tree!!! Great material....

Bravo!! this is what I like to see for a first post..... well done.... gold star!!! where do you live btw? you might want to update your profile with that information... it will of course help with any seasonal advice.

 

[dpowell]

I'll play devil's advocate just for the hell of it. I like picture 1 as the front. I think that deadwood can be interesting in deciduous tress and even though it may be harder to keep around than conifer deadwood, it still tells a story. Some of the secondary branches are very long and straight so I would think about cutting those back. I've done a terrible mock up of what I'd think about doing based on the pictures. I'm just unsure as to whether or not I'd keep the apex or cut it back. It's hard to tell from this angle. One thing is for sure, you have to look at this as a long term project. It's going to need a number of years growth to fill out the branches.

 

[JudyB]

I too like the 3rd pic as the front. Good pickup, looks like a fun proj. Just make sure you start with a plan, so you don't wish you had "that" branch back...
(you know - the one you cut off last year.... )

 

[jk_lewis]

#3 for the front. That "trunk" going up in the canopy in the first picture really is not very attractive.

You have a nice starter there, but there's a lot of work.

A small bit of photo advice:

Don't use the on-camera flash. It flattens the front of the image and here makes it hard to separate branches from shadow thrown on the wall behind it. If for some reason (????) you must use flash, move the tree a couple of feet away from the wall so the shadows are a bit more vague and don't mimic the branches quite as much.

 

[Zach Smith]

First of all, great material! If this was my tree I'd remove all of the side branches and grow new ones, wiring them early on to get some good movement. This appears to be a vigorous enough tree that that would work beautifully. If picture 1 is the front, I'd shorten the tallest leader to where it's three times as long as its diameter starting at the hollow. From there a new leader would be grown, which should enhance taper quite a bit (the main leader loses taper toward the apex). And finally, I'd lose the secondary leader (the one to the left).

For what it's worth.

Zach

 

[rockm]

I agree with Zach on all counts. The existing side branching is mostly worthless, as it is growing UP not out. Bending those branches into a more lateral position will look artificial.

However, the nebari (base at soil level) and trunk are excellent and those two things are the primary visual elements of a bonsai. You're already off to a great start.

 

[Ang3lfir3]

you are suggesting that the OP take this great trunk and make another silly looking unnatural trident with pine tree styling??? why can't the lower sections of the upward growing branches be used to create a proper D tree.... who cares if its only 1/4" .... why wait to gain all that thickness when tridents back bud profusely and you can heal the scars easily wiring the branches and emerge to get good movement sorry I wouldn't waste my time growing pencil thin branches on this tree if I didn't have to...

I think if we were discussing this in person it would be easier to see my point... but I am just about out of effort at explaining it here.... so we can agree to disagree and maybe one day talk about it in person.... that would be nice....

 

[snowsurf125]

Thanks everyone for the thoughts. I hadn't completely decided on the front yet; it was just easier to label a front and back based off how it was sitting at the nursery. I snagged this guy because of its sheer presence, some decent branch placement, nice nebari, and was easy to tell it had quite a few options to make a great tree.
When I first saw it, I planned on making the first image the front based off of some of the branches and also to try to use that huge scare to give it some character and try to use it as a feature to show off, rather than try and hide it. But then after looking at it a bit more from the 3rd image view point, I questioned using that as the front instead. At this point, I have definitely not made up my mind on it, and plan on getting as much input as possible before I commit to anything. I am still wrestling between going with a traditional tree, or keeping it a bit more gnarly and natural looking.
In a few weeks, I am going to the Huntington Gardens Bonsai-a-thon and plan on taking some good pictures with me to hopefully get some more thoughts from some more knowledgable people down there. I am not going to rush into any major decisions yet because I don't want to ruin the tree or regret something later down the line. And as far as the pictures, I didn't use a flash. The tree was just too close to the back drop and I was a little pressed for time and an extra hand to get better pictures. I do have a few pictures of the tree from over the summer before it lost its leaves in fall. It is quite vigorous and healthy, but like I said, I'm not rushing this guy.

 

[snowsurf125]

Oh yeah, I live in Southern California, in Oak Hills (a little more than an hour away from LA). It is the high desert, Zone 10... somewhat cold winters, fairly hot summers, and fairly windy. Fortunately for me, and my trees, I built a shade house this last summer with my brother (who is also into bonsai) and my dad. And in the first picture, the bottom right branch that is thin and curves a bit, that branch is dead, so it isn't an option for styling.

 

[snowsurf125]

So... I let this tree set for the year since it was just dug up 2/26/11 for the first time. I wanted to make sure it was nice and healthy.

Now this might be too late in the season, but for any major work on this, would it be too late in the year to do any major branch work?? I would like to pull most of the main branches down a bit, but at the same time, cut them back as well to start inducing some new branches. My idea lies somewhere within the "naturalistic/ traditional" styles that have been so hotly debated. I have been inspired watching a few videos on Youtube to try and set some sort of structure and then from there leave have a great place for this tree to move from.

Would anyone recommend anyone in particular to try and meet with to work with on this? I was honestly hoping that Walter Pall would be coming through Southern California this year on his annual US trip and I would be able to take this tree to his workshop to study with him on this. Unfortunately, that was not an option. I know there are many great masters in the Souther California/ LA area to work with. Any particular suggestions for this type of material?

 

[nathanbs]

Now is the perfect time to prune branches. Mauro Stemberger will be in So. Cal next month with Descanso Bonsai Society, Kofu Kai and Baikoen all hosting bring your own tree workshops with him. Otherwise working with Ted Matson would be great idea in my opinion. Lindsey Shiba does classes out closer to you and has significant knowledge and experience with tridents. Here is a picture of one of his tridents. He is in Lytle Creek. PS I will be at Bonsai-a-thon selling if you want to chat. I will be outside and I'm 6'5" you cant miss me.

 

[snowsurf125]

So I never got a chance to work on this tree last year, so I finally got to it this year (2014). Decided to take all the big branches off and start over with new branches. I know it'll be a long process, and that's ok with me.

We had an early start to spring this year so the buds were already popping pretty good when I finally cut the big branches back. Left the about an inch or so of each large branch sticking out of the trunk for a little room to die back and not dehydrate as much from the trunk. I believe I cut them end of February/ beginning of March. Can't find the date.

I went to check it out today since it's being boarded at Kimura Bonsai Nursery and I don't get to see it every day. This is what the growth looks like. It's going crazy at the all the nodes, but not really sending out any long shoots. Any thoughts? Any ideas on what is going on? or better yet, how to get it to send out longer shoots instead of a a thousand tiny little buds that burn off?

 

[discusmike]

That's some funky looking growth, do you have a pic of the whole tree.

 

[snowsurf125]

That's some funky looking growth, do you have a pic of the whole tree.

Unfortunately no. It was difficult to get the shots as I only had my phone with me and I didn't want to move around the trees that were around it, as they are not my trees. Basically, every large branch that was pruned back hard, almost to the trunk, is pushing out all these buds that never get more than a couple of very small leaves that seem to just burn off. And the shadows and lighting were terrible for pictures as well.

The tree seems to be pushing 20+ tiny little buds, no longer than 1-2 nodes, at each of these spots, as opposed to 1-5 buds that are many node lengths and continuing to grow. I am concerned that the tree is in a downward decline and will not get enough energy to get through the hot summer and winter next year to bounce back.

Any thoughts or ideas?

 

[JudyB]

I would ask the folks that have boarded the tree for you what they think is going on. Bob should be able to help you out.

 

[snowsurf125]

I would ask the folks that have boarded the tree for you what they think is going on. Bob should be able to help you out.

Thanks Judy. I have already asked Bob his thoughts on the tree. Figured I'd also reach out to the rest of the community to see if anyone else has had similar issues.

Bob thinks the odd growth was probably due to it being a hard pruning done a bit late into the season. We had a fairly warm winter and very early spring this year. And I also moved from an area that, while only being 1.5 hrs away, was still a month behind, seasonally/ temperature wise. All things to learn. I also lost a Ca. Juni in the process. That was due to a number of factors and a bit of a gamble. As Bob mentioned to me, learn from it so it isn't a loss.

 

[snowsurf125]

Finally had a few hours to thin out all the little burnt off growth. After talking with Bob Pressler, he suggested I thin out all the little bushy growths down to 1-3 buds each in hopes that the tree would start focussing more on sending energy to those areas instead of a million little buds that are getting burnt off. I tried to choose some of the stronger looking buds and shoots (I use the term "stronger" very liberally in this case as there are no shoots on here that look strong in comparison to past years growths).

Here are a few shots of the before and after. Took a few hours. This is just a small taste of the mess.

 

[snowsurf125]

and another.