Learning how to Shape Pads on my Nana Procumbens

[Esolin]

If it were my tree, I would check for mites. Feed with Alaskan Fish emulsion 5:1:1
and Neptunes Harvest seaweed fertilizer. Then follow through with Mancozeb just in case there's a blight
you're dealing with, and let the tree run.
I noticed that in the 2nd picture, there's this yellowing beginning already.
Sorry, a little confused on the timeline here. The 2nd and 3rd pics are today?

I don't think it's mites but I'll check it, and I'll treat with Mancozeb.

Yes, all the pics except for the top 2017 one are current. I removed the dying and downward foliage and will get some Neptune's to try.

This may be what I was talking about when I said if you don't thin the tree will decide what foliage
is removed for you. That's almost always the interior, and it begins by losing colour. Once it has
it probably won't correct itself, and yellow turns to brown. If we thin before this, light gets in and we have decided
what foliage goes, and what remains.

This is what I suspect is happening. Perhaps my problem isn't only technique, but rather the timing/frequency of pruning and not fertilizing aggressively enough to sustain rapid backbudding, especially on shohin trees. How many times per year do you thin?

 

[Japonicus]

I don't think it's mites but I'll check it, and I'll treat with Mancozeb.

Yes, all the pics except for the top 2017 one are current. I removed the dying and downward foliage and will get some Neptune's to try.


This is what I suspect is happening. Perhaps my problem isn't only technique, but rather the timing/frequency of pruning and not fertilizing aggressively enough to sustain rapid backbudding, especially on shohin trees. How many times per year do you thin?

Once or twice a year I thin. It's a case by case thing. I always let the foliage go unchecked
from early to mid Summer the year before I repot. That extra foliage is going to drive root development and recovery.
After repotting, I leave most foliage unchecked till following mid Summer and thin accordingly (in stages).
Then there's the lazy calendar. Years where I've been too busy and let the foliage get too thick.
These are the trees I may take multiple years to thin.
In thinning trees that have never been thinned, you're going to experience more upper, than lateral growth.
These I don't always thin down to the main branch. I cut down to a bifurcation, leaving a growing tip(s),
letting light in, and promoting lateral buds at the base (of the upwards growing shoot) that we'll cut back to another year.

The Seaweed isn't much on the analysis ratios, but provide some trace elements.
If you only added one thing, the fish emulsion would be it. I can use that 5:1:1 and get better results than MiracleGro
which I do rotate in. Fish emulsion will temporarily attract bees and smell like the river.

 

[Esolin]

Okay, I thinned the bushy Nana. I had two goals: leave the whips long to keep vigor and encourage trunk thickening, open up the trunk area to light to encourage backbudding.

I tried to remove most of the top and bottom growth from branches. I didn't wire any branches; all the wire on the tree was already there.

Before:


After:




Too much? Not enough?

 

[Japonicus]

open up the trunk area to light to encourage backbudding.

Ahh, feels good don't it?
A lot of times when I make a cut, I'll say to myself, "that felt good".
Coming along. Can you post a pic from the front?

 

[Esolin]

Haha, yeah. It still looks messy because I didn't wire down all of the side branches angling up, but it's a lot lighter!

Before:


After:



Trunk close up:

 

[Thomas J.]

Your tree needs some serious Chelated Iron for the yellowing. Spider mites will cause the tree foliage to dull out not yellow. My procumbens have never had spider mites in all the years I worked with them until my big tree got it last year, thought I lost it but with a combination of Chelated Iron, Malathion, and a stronger fertilizer such as Miracle Grow for Rhododendrons it came back good and pretty much faster than I thought. I also fertilize my procumbens with Holly Tone which is an acidic organic fertilizer, I read a long time ago to use an acidic fertilizer on most conifers and it works out really well for me.

 

[Esolin]

Your tree needs some serious Chelated Iron for the yellowing. Spider mites will cause the tree foliage to dull out not yellow. My procumbens have never had spider mites in all the years I worked with them until my big tree got it last year, thought I lost it but with a combination of Chelated Iron, Malathion, and a stronger fertilizer such as Miracle Grow for Rhododendrons it came back good and pretty much faster than I thought. I also fertilize my procumbens with Holly Tone which is an acidic organic fertilizer, I read a long time ago to use an acidic fertilizer on most conifers and it works out really well for me.

Thanks. Chlorosis can be an issue here with our hard tap water. I do supplement iron and Espoma brand soil acidifier from time to time, though we had a such a long rainy, gloomy winter, I didn't need tap water for 3 months, and I've been fertilizing with Miracle Grow, Osmacote and Gro Power. I'll add fish emulsion and iron to the list.

I will be spraying with Malathion and some Mancozeb today. I do have one weak Prostrata that's been plagued with mites this year, and a weak RMJ that's got juniper scale. The rest have been pretty immune to pests over the years, and there's a healthy population of mite predators in the yard since there are some mite attracting landscape plants I never spray. But again, an unusually dark, wet Winter and Spring has weakened some things and made the insect population explode. I will spray later today when the morning mist stops.

 

[Thomas J.]

Thanks. Chlorosis can be an issue here with our hard tap water. I do supplement iron and Espoma brand soil acidifier from time to time, though we had a such a long rainy, gloomy winter, I didn't need tap water for 3 months, and I've been fertilizing with Miracle Grow, Osmacote and Gro Power. I'll add fish emulsion and iron to the list.

I will be spraying with Malathion and some Mancozeb today. I do have one weak Prostrata that's been plagued with mites this year, and a weak RMJ that's got juniper scale. The rest have been pretty immune to pests over the years, and there's a healthy population of mite predators in the yard since there are some mite attracting landscape plants I never spray. But again, an unusually dark, wet Winter and Spring has weakened some things and made the insect population explode. I will spray later today when the morning mist stops.

Well it sounds like you're doing all the right things, sorry that you are still having problems but maybe it's like you said too wet at times for too long. Hope you can get it under control.

 

[Japonicus]

and a stronger fertilizer such as Miracle Grow for Rhododendrons it came back good and pretty much faster than I thought.

Good to hear. I rotate the acidic MiracleGro in 2 or 3x/yr on all my conifers except for shimpaku. Never had issues using it on them, but their roots so to say, are from alkaline terrain. I like the Espoma Holly Tone too. Always had a bag of it in the house since I was a kid.

 

[Japonicus]

Your tree needs some serious Chelated Iron for the yellowing.

Could you recommend a particular product and directions for bonsai culture?
I have Scotts Green Max with 5% iron, and 27-2-10 analysis on hand.

 

[Thomas J.]

This is what I use generally use for the Chelated iron, 1tbs per gallon of water, it also has micronutrients which is a plus.

 

[Japonicus]

@Esolin It's been 3 wks since thinned in these pics.
(not the one on the right)
This is the extent of the brown which will be short lived.
On a more refined tree even less brown, as these cuts are still corrective in producing more lateral growth...but some growth tips (not cut or pinched) still span the majority of most branches.

Tree on right needs thinning, but repotting next year, so I'll go esier on it striking a balance in air flow/Sun, and energy.
I've read before, that every juniper will have to be wired out completely, at some point in its life as bonsai. The 2 trees in the pot on the left, have yet to ever be wired, which is not the norm.
Have fun!!!

 

[Esolin]

Thanks! I guess the browning is normal then. Maybe I just let mine get too thick between trimmings and it takes way longer for them to fill in.

Yesterday I looked at the two branches I thinned (two weeks ago?). The first branch hasn't done too much, although it still has it's little green terminal bud waiting to grow. The second One had some backbudding growth already. I'll take pictures soon. I've been scrambling to check up on the status of a lot of my other plants this week before the Spring trimming/repotting season ends. The cool gloomy June days are starting to leave.

 

[Esolin]

So, it's been 20 days since I performed the hard prune on two branches of my primary subject. The weather has turned sunny so the tree's been soaking up a lot of full morning sun and dappled afternoon shade.



I inspected the branches for interior back buds. Branch 1 has many nice new lime green buds starting.


Branch 2 has fewer new interior buds, but they are buds nonetheless.


I was confident this particular specimen would handle some hard pruning well, and overall I'm pleased with the results so far.

It's too late in the season here now for further hard pruning, but I will apply this pruning method to more branches either in the Fall or next Spring and try to start working the tree toward tighter pads and a more refined design.

 

[Japonicus]

So, it's been 20 days since I performed the hard prune on two branches of my primary subject. The weather has turned sunny so the tree's been soaking up a lot of full morning sun and dappled afternoon shade.

View attachment 495479

I inspected the branches for interior back buds. Branch 1 has many nice new lime green buds starting.
View attachment 495480

Branch 2 has fewer new interior buds, but they are buds nonetheless.
View attachment 495481

I was confident this particular specimen would handle some hard pruning well, and overall I'm pleased with the results so far.

It's too late in the season here now for further hard pruning, but I will apply this pruning method to more branches either in the Fall or next Spring and try to start working the tree toward tighter pads and a more refined design.

And these new buds are lateral Looking good.
I wouldn't call thinning hard pruning, and you're probably thinking right to hold off on further thinning
for 2 months. Hard pruning does not involve scissors I don't think.
I would not do wholesale thinning in Fall. I've had in my area, good results with hard cut backs
in July and August. Then on the other hand, I've had poor results (brink of death) with Fall thinning then repotting
in Spring. I will prune wayward growth (minimal areas in Fall) to shape and seal the wound, but I do not thin after Summer.
If repotting a juniper in Spring that I thinned in the previous Fall takes it to the brink of death, then I have learned
enough from that one instance that Fall thinning is quite the insult, and for me, risky.
Not sure what your temps are running now, but if I get positive results in July, and the heat is on till September here
I would guess mid August would be a good time to carry on. Maybe get another from a nursery and have at it.

 

[Ruddigger]

Nice work so far. My only comment is that you can leave some of the top growing stuff to fill out the pads

 

[Esolin]

I wouldn't call thinning hard pruning, and you're probably thinking right to hold off on further thinning
for 2 months. Hard pruning does not involve scissors I don't think.

Thanks. Yes, I suppose 'hard prune' is the wrong term. Thinning is accurate. I'm not always great with terminology!

Not sure what your temps are running now, but if I get positive results in July, and the heat is on till September here
I would guess mid August would be a good time to carry on. Maybe get another from a nursery and have at it.

I've heard pines and needle junipers like Rigida like to be worked in the hot months, but I'm unsure about Procumbens.
July is when the steady 80F heat starts here and August is when it takes off. Doesn't usually break much until October. The last few years have been less predictable in terms of temps. Often we get at least one month steady in the 90's, with a couple of those weeks climbing into the low 100's. Low humidity is typical. But last year was very mild and it seldom climbed above 95, and the humidity felt more monsoonal. So it's hard to say what this year will be like. There is ususally a short Fall growth spurt in October and November, and very slow growth through the winter when temps average around 60 and dip to 40 at night.

 

[Esolin]

Just a quick check in. It's been about two months now since I started experimenting with my pruning approach to this juniper. The weather was mild this last weekend so I decided to spend time inspecting the tree's growth. It's doing well. The backbuds are continuing to grow.



I also noticed some backbudding on certain other branches that I hadn't previously thinned, so I did a little more conservative thinning to encourage more light and resources to reach these backbuds. I also cleaned up the pad bottoms. It still needs more thinning, but I'm going easy through the summer.

The most drastic thing I did was jin the lowest left branch. I know I also need to jin the next branch up to really improve the design, but that would've removed all the foliage from that branch, and I'm afraid doing so might kill half of the trunk supporting it. I need to warm up to the idea of adding that much shari.



Recently fed with Miracle grow. Will feed another round of fish emulsion this coming weekend.

 

[Esolin]

Has it really been 10 months? Yikes. Well, I moved 6 months ago and time has been flying for me ever since. Each weekend is an endless barrage of home improvement projects from painting rooms to ripping out bushes. With a few repotting exceptions, my bonsai have been ignored lately. But this guy was getting super shaggy so I finally got around to thinning it today. I probably didn't take off enough, but I'm out of practice.

Before:



After:





I need to get a dedicated backdrop for taking better pictures, but I think the structure is slowly improving. There's a branch in the back I need to wire up to improve a pad, and perhaps some more jinning to do, but otherwise, I just need to practice thinning more often until I get better at it. I noticed the foliage on the branches I had previously thinned hard was much tighter compared to on a lot of others.

I should probably shop for a better pot for it, too.

 

[Bonsai Forest]

Has it really been 10 months? Yikes. Well, I moved 6 months ago and time has been flying for me ever since. Each weekend is an endless barrage of home improvement projects from painting rooms to ripping out bushes. With a few repotting exceptions, my bonsai have been ignored lately. But this guy was getting super shaggy so I finally got around to thinning it today. I probably didn't take off enough, but I'm out of practice.

Before:

View attachment 543241

After:



View attachment 543242

I need to get a dedicated backdrop for taking better pictures, but I think the structure is slowly improving. There's a branch in the back I need to wire up to improve a pad, and perhaps some more jinning to do, but otherwise, I just need to practice thinning more often until I get better at it. I noticed the foliage on the branches I had previously thinned hard was much tighter compared to on a lot of others.

I should probably shop for a better pot for it, too.

Nice progress. I’ve started structural work on some recently acquired Procumbens. Very early stages:

Two trunks (rear and front)


Single trunk - double apex plan


Started out as ground cover hard and low, now is forced upward and swirling to an apex (heavy bending!)

Now to be patient, let them grow, and carefully select secondaries in all the right places (and eventually tertiaries and foliage pads ascending to the tops.