Need to cut a pro nana back

[subnet_rx]

I have a pro nana that I bought at a nursery a couple of years ago with the intention of doing a spreading live oak style with it. Besides repotting, I haven't done much to it during those 2 years. Last October, I thinned the branches to let a bit more light into the canopy, but I need to do much more.

As you can see in the second picture, the branches are very long as a result of the crowding and reaching for light. How can I work these back so that the foliage is closer to the main branches coming off of the trunk? It's not really ramification that I need right now as much as I need back-budding (I think).

How can I get this back to something manageable and when should I do it?

 

[milehigh_7]

Looking forward to the answers on this as I have one that is in similar condition and is in a 5gal can still.

 

[fourteener]

Trimming

I would do three things first.

1. Trim off the long extensions to a point that you like.
2. Trim out the crotches at the joint to the main branches. (A clean crotch is a happy crotch)
3. Trim our dead/scraggly limbs. Make choices where two branches are competing for the same space. I'm always thinking about how I can uses less limbs and fill this out better.

After you clean out some obvious problems, maybe you've opened it up enough to start thinking more about the form. If you want it to have the shape of an oak tree, you'll have to think about which branch you are going to have to wire up, or how your going to get some elevation. This plant will grow sideways all day and never up.

 

[Vance Wood]

The real temptation with trees like this is to have a pre-set design in mind before you have really examined the trunk, the movement, and the secondary branching to see if there is a design the trunk could be reconciled with that will give you a decent bonsai regardless of your pre-set design. Some people can take a potato and a small knife and carve something out of it, while others can only make mashed potatoes. If you settle in your mind that this tree is going to be this or that before you really know what's going on inside all the green you will wind up with mashed potatoes.

What you need to know is all about the trunk, forget every thing else. In bonsai it's all about the trunk in the end. The trunk defines the quality of the tree. What you should do is examine the trunk and the main branches being careful not to pull up on them with too much force lest you snap one of them off. Once you understand the foundations of the tree then you should start reducing the green down to proportions that accentuate the trunk.

 

[Poink88]

The real temptation with trees like this is to have a pre-set design in mind before you have really examined the trunk, the movement, and the secondary branching to see if there is a design the trunk could be reconciled with that will give you a decent bonsai regardless of your pre-set design....

What you need to know is all about the trunk, forget every thing else. In bonsai it's all about the trunk in the end. The trunk defines the quality of the tree. What you should do is examine the trunk and the main branches ....... Once you understand the foundations of the tree then you should start reducing the green down to proportions that accentuate the trunk.

Another home run post.

Thanks Vance!

 

[MrFancyPlants]

I just received one of these as a gift and will take Vance's styling advice to heart when it is my turn to dig in. I'll post some photos once it makes the trip up from Panama City, Fl. It is being driven up by some relatives, so it may take a while. I'll have some reverse taper and typical styling to contend with as well, but never look a gift horse in the mouth or something.

 

[Vance Wood]

I posted a video link on another post that is oddly enough appropriate for the discussion going on here. The point is the imporance of the trunk. Sure; knowing or seeing what to do with branching is very important but, without a decent trunk the best wiring and the best hopes for somewhere down the road in twenty-years are not much more than kicking the can down the road.

This video is by Graham Potter: He is dealing with a Yew scavanged from a dumpster. As I mentioned in the other post this piece of material, most of us would have left it in the dumpster or given it away. But look what happens when you allow an artistic eye to take over and develop a trunk.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=mSnRm7PicYs

 

[subnet_rx]

Thanks Vance, I think that highlights what is maybe the main problem I have. I have several evergreen trees that I can't defoliate. When I have a tree like that, I really have problems looking at the form and getting started with where I want to go. For my deciduous trees, I enjoy looking at the form during the winter and mulling changes. I often find that what I saw yesterday, doesn't look the same from the angle that I'm at today, but I don't have that luxury with trees like this. I think this is really where I was going when I said "get this back to something manageable", because this tree with all the foliage is just chaos to me.

As far as the style goes, I originally bought this at Plant City Bonsai and talked with Steve about the fact that I have several spreading live oaks right outside my office window and would like to do a tree in that style. We finally settled on this one. I wouldn't say I normally make that call before even buying, but did (with a little help) in this case.

 

[Vance Wood]

Thanks Vance, I think that highlights what is maybe the main problem I have. I have several evergreen trees that I can't defoliate. When I have a tree like that, I really have problems looking at the form and getting started with where I want to go. For my deciduous trees, I enjoy looking at the form during the winter and mulling changes. I often find that what I saw yesterday, doesn't look the same from the angle that I'm at today, but I don't have that luxury with trees like this. I think this is really where I was going when I said "get this back to something manageable", because this tree with all the foliage is just chaos to me.

As far as the style goes, I originally bought this at Plant City Bonsai and talked with Steve about the fact that I have several spreading live oaks right outside my office window and would like to do a tree in that style. We finally settled on this one. I wouldn't say I normally make that call before even buying, but did (with a little help) in this case.

I don't fault you for your choice but in this case trying to make a conifer look like a broad-leafed evergreen may be a mistake you will eventually regret. By the way, did you look at the video. If you have not please take the time to do so, it may open your eyes to the fact that this stuff does not mean you have to go out and buy very expensive material that everyone wants. And, it may make you realize that you can make a really good bonsai out of junk if you develop the eye to do so. What you are seeing in this video is the European approach to bonsai, something we in America have not come close to, partly because we have bought into this excuse that we need to buy better material, when the fact is we are slow to accept the possibility that we can be better regardless of the material.

 

[subnet_rx]

Yeah, I've actually watched that video twice. I have not had great luck finding "bonsai in the wild" in my area. We have lots of large pine, and large leaf oak. Not saying it's not possible, but the trips I have taken on the land that I have access to collect from haven't been that fruitful.

It's kind of depressing to hear that this tree may not be the best for that style. It's really the only reason I got it, otherwise, I would not have a juniper. It's not a tree that I would find in my landscape, and most of the styles that I am accustomed to seeing it in aren't either.

 

[Vance Wood]

Yeah, I've actually watched that video twice. I have not had great luck finding "bonsai in the wild" in my area. We have lots of large pine, and large leaf oak. Not saying it's not possible, but the trips I have taken on the land that I have access to collect from haven't been that fruitful.

It's kind of depressing to hear that this tree may not be the best for that style. It's really the only reason I got it, otherwise, I would not have a juniper. It's not a tree that I would find in my landscape, and most of the styles that I am accustomed to seeing it in aren't either.

It sure fits into the realm of thousands of conifer bonsai which you can find thousands of examples of in books and on the INTERNET, where you might be able to find a dozen examples of the style you want to create, and none with the material you have selected. Here again you are only looking at the shape of the crown (all that green stuff) and thinking this would make this great shape, but you don't have a trunk that will support that image successfully.

Incidentally the tree used in that video was not collected from the wild it was found in the garbaged. It is a common landscape tree dug out of a hedge and tossed in the dumpster.

 

[KennedyMarx]

It's hard to see most of the trunk line in the picture, but it would probably be better styled as a semi cascade or cascade rather than an informal upright. It has a stepping growth habit so end the end you would just be fighting its natural tendencies. Vance's advice was excellent. The tree defines its style and its better to work with it rather than fight it.

 

[fourteener]

Everyone says you can't



Here's a sloppy two minute photoshop version of your tree. It has the right shape to do what you want. Don't worry about the rules. Give it a try, maybe everyone else will wonder why they didn't try it

I couldn't mimick thinning it out. Check out my Kingsville Boxwood tree on my blog tgtbonsai.blogspot.com It is probably the look you are going for.

 

[fourteener]

Decided to get the picture for you.

Here's my boxwood

 

[Vance Wood]

Here's my boxwoodView attachment 31461View attachment 31462

Wow, I am dumbfounded by the logic applied here and realize anything I have to say cannot possible contribute to a positive outcome for this tree. Sometimes you just have to let the kid touch the stove to understand the words hot and no have meaning.

 

[fourteener]

Ouch, systems theory teaching us much!!

Wow, I am dumbfounded by the logic applied here and realize anything I have to say cannot possible contribute to a positive outcome for this tree. Sometimes you just have to let the kid touch the stove to understand the words hot and no have meaning.

I understand the shot at me. I am not a big proponent of using a juniper in what is traditionally a deciduous style, but every once in awhile the rules can be broken to try something. Thanks for your warning about the hot stove. I do tend to touch it and let me just say sometimes I get burned and sometimes I create something everyone said couldn't be done.

Not trying to be offensive, calling me illogical let's me know where you are at. Welcome to the forums fourteener!!!

 

[Vance Wood]

I understand the shot at me. I am not a big proponent of using a juniper in what is traditionally a deciduous style, but every once in awhile the rules can be broken to try something. Thanks for your warning about the hot stove. I do tend to touch it and let me just say sometimes I get burned and sometimes I create something everyone said couldn't be done.

Not trying to be offensive, calling me illogical let's me know where you are at. Welcome to the forums fourteener!!!

I didn't call you illogical, neither was it a shot at you--- but at what you said. Myself, and a couple of others, spent not a little time trying to convince Subnet to change his viewpoint about this tree; which is what we should do. As to the reference to the hot stove, that lesson usually only takes once, but you try to keep people from having to learn the unnecessary hard lessons. Then you turn around and hand the guy a match and a gallon of gasoline.

Now if you want a shot that was one. Trouble is,---it was not an insult, as most "shots" are, but the truth, and Subnet is going to pay the price for it. In the end he will wind up with a tree that looks like nothing. He will have learned nothing and probably think bonsai is too hard and quit.

I wish I had had someone in the beginning telling me I was going in the wrong direction then I wouldn't have had to learn everything the hard way: Making mistake, after mistake and relying on determination to carry me through.

 

[october]

Well, the proposed style of live oak does not really work with this tree because it will just look like a bush. If anything, it will just be a mallsai. It is a waste of time, effort and learning that could be spent on a more fruitful endevor. Well, more fruitful than creating a mallsai anyway. However, going in another direction with this tree might produce something nice in time.

Also, for health reasons this style will not work. The trees interior foliage would begin to die because there would not be sufficient spaces and openings in the design for light and air to get in. Also, leaving more than one upper trunk will eventually lead to reverse taper. Meaning there will be a swelling in the trunks where they split. Basically, the tree's design would be on borrowed time anyway before it was ruined by the tree just growing.

Vance has given some concrete and good advice here.


Here is a virt of what could probably be done with this tree. You could cut the right side off and create a cascade style.

Rob

 

[Vance Wood]

Well, the propsed style of live oak does not really work with this tree because it will just look like a bush. If anything, it will just be a mallsai. It is a waste of time, effort and learning that could be spent on a more fruitful endevor. Well, more fruitful than creating a mallsai anyway.

Also, for health reasons this style will not work. The trees interior foliage would begin to die because there would not be sufficient spaces and openings in the design for light and air to get in. Also, leaving more than one upper trunk will eventually lead to reverse taper. Meaning there will be a swelling in the trunks where they split. Basically, the tree's design would be on borrowed time anyway before it was ruined by the tree just growing.

Vance has given some concrete and good advice here.


Here is a virt of what could probably be done with this tree. You could cut the right side off and create a cascade style.

Rob

View attachment 31465

Probably wont listen now.

 

[fourteener]

Have you achieved mature foliage on a Jap Garden Juniper

Well, the proposed style of live oak does not really work with this tree because it will just look like a bush. If anything, it will just be a mallsai. It is a waste of time, effort and learning that could be spent on a more fruitful endevor. Well, more fruitful than creating a mallsai anyway. However, going in another direction with this tree might produce something nice in time.

Also, for health reasons this style will not work. The trees interior foliage would begin to die because there would not be sufficient spaces and openings in the design for light and air to get in. Also, leaving more than one upper trunk will eventually lead to reverse taper. Meaning there will be a swelling in the trunks where they split. Basically, the tree's design would be on borrowed time anyway before it was ruined by the tree just growing.

Vance has given some concrete and good advice here.


Here is a virt of what could probably be done with this tree. You could cut the right side off and create a cascade style.

Rob

View attachment 31465

So here is a picture of two Jap Garden Junipers. They are 10 years old. Stunted, keeping mature foliage(not immature foliage). Be honest gentlemen, how many times do you see mature foliage on a these plants. It has not out grown it's design, it doesn't have any reverse taper, it's been the same shape forever. I have intentionally kept them in a small pot, barely water them, and they grow 1/4 of an inch per year or less.

You create space in the foliage for light to enter, just like any other juniper. These trunks aren't growing who are you kidding. If they do swell and create inverse taper, you just cut off the branch and carve it down.

Vance has given good advice, but you two act like there is only one way to skin a cat. You're right and everyone else is wrong. Just because you been on the forum longer doesn't mean I don't know anything. If you have a picture of a japanese garden juniper that you have gotten to maintain mature foliage, let me see it.

Maybe I do know something, maybe you don't have to write me off as irrelevant. Proof is in the pudding. I was told I was Full Of Crap the other day on these boards because of my discussion about tamaracks that nobody else knew about. Again I had to show pictures to show people I do know my craft. What is it with power hungry people on these boards?