New Bonsai Rule

[A Random User]

Ok... I just spent 9 straight hours doing demos yesterday at our annual bonsai convention... and was actually surprised how little folks knew about basic bonsai construction, maintenance, and care. I left last night wondering how and why things like cleaning out a tree, wiring a tree, using guy wires, establishing pads, trimming foliage, cutting branches, use of cut paste or putty, etc. Were not something that alot of the audience who had been doing bonsai for more than a couple of years, didn't at least have a basic understanding of?

Not trying to be insulting with this, because i know that obviously not everyone is where I am at, and has the level of knowledge I have, this is why I was there doing the demos... In the hopes that I may be able to pass on some of what I have learned... but, damn... there were folks who have been doing this as long as I have and some longer!

So, on the 4 1/2 hour sit in traffic drive home, a drive that normally takes a little over 45 mins, it began to dawn on me that I think there is an inherent flaw within the way folks are told to learn bonsai... and with the recent as well as the past, Big Box Store Challanges, as well as some of the comments and threads made surrounding these, it for me only reconfirm some of this...

Sorry, I am just going to spit this out, if it offends folks I am sorry, I am not directly trying to attack you personally, but this has to be said in order that we all hopefully will grow... and that is, What the hell was everyone doing??? I mean I have read any number of excuses for why their trees weren't better... there are no excuses in bonsai, and their definitely should of been no excuses to why a tree that one was able to go out and hand pick, was not adequate to establish a tree from. I mean I can understand if one plopped a piece of junk in front of one and said, here do something with this... trust me I know, I had that happen yesterday at one of the demos... but, I still managed to at least make a somewhat decent tree out of it, in front of an audience, and I had to do it in a couple of hours...

But, everyone had months to find something, had 14 days to style it, I mean come on! And when one sees trees from beginners that were better than those who have been doing bonsai for 10 plus years, I just wonder what is happening? And before anyone gets made at me for what I am saying, you should turn instead that anger towards oneself. For in reality one is only letting oneself down.

I also while I am at it, want to address this whole "Instant Bonsai" conversation that's going around... it's being thrown around in a negative, condesating way as though what was being done was something negative and here again some sort of excuse as to why someone might have not done better, or why some did as well as they did... and I think this is just pure bull. I am not quite sure where everyone else was going, but for me what I did with my tree was give my tree it's first styling. Nothing more... I did no smoke n mirrors here, I didn't wire and bend a branch this way and that just to produce a pretty tree. I didn't need too because I picked material that I could make a tree out of, found the tree within the material, and made the tree. Not to mention, that I bought the tree in the morning, had styled the tree before lunch, and had photographed and sent Vin the final images before dinner.

There was no act of God here... this is just what one is suppose to do when doing bonsai... and in my personal opinion, I kinda find it insulting that there are comments being thrown around that this is somehow not real bonsai? How is it not? This is just plain silly, and only shows a lack of understanding of how to do bonsai and really leads more to how I believe bonsai is taught, and how one learns how to do bonsai... which here again in my personal opinion would much more describe an "Instant Bonsai".

For those of you who haven't yet left and have managed to put some of their pride aside, how dare you say some of the things you have said, I can hear it now... In my following posts I will address some of the fundamental flaws I see happening... you can agree with me, or not, makes no difference. Thanks.

 

[whfarro]

People don't have a clue and they Vote too! Why should doing Bonsai without a clue surprise you.

 

[M. Frary]

This is because you understand the whole styling challenge ,instant bonsai concept is all Sawgrass. You've participated in big time styling challenges and know what it takes to win one.
A lot of people can't see the tree in a given piece of stock.
I really don't feel it's my place to criticize any of the work done in the challenge because I didn't participate. So I wont.

 

[A Random User]

Before I start, let me say, that I understand that for some folks Bonsai is just a hobby and something to do... if they weren't doing this they would probably be painting pictures of cats or golfing and that's fine, in fact it is better than fine, it awesome, bonsai is wonderful and does help one not only be creative, but have a sense of purpose in life, in the way of the fact that you are nurturing and caring for a living thing. So keep doing what you're doing... for those that this is not the case let's move on...

Let's start with Material, since there seems to be alot of interest in this as of lately... Yes, it is true that really to have a "great" bonsai your chances are better if one starts off with "great" material... but let's not forget that often in places like Japan and here in the states, that there is a whole world of folks behind the scenes that have spent years developing crappie material into actual "great" material. Often some of this development has quite literally taken a life time to create, so you are in essence paying for this service when buying this material. This does not mean one cannot essentially do the same thing. So, yes one could in all actuality take a crappie big box store tree and make something of it. It all a "time" thing here, and if you are wanting to do this.

Other alternatives to this are growing from seed or even from cuttings... any piece of crap, even sticks in pots, long term could be polished and eventually be turned into a quite amazing tree. Obviously, some just are naturally going to rise above this and become naturally better... it is just the way it is, but alot of the future of how a tree eventually turns out is in the present... by this I mean it is quite literally the choices you are making now on the tree that will determine this out come.

Are you ready for these decisions? Are you able to take the tree to this future point?

One of the first flaws I see in bonsai is the inherent nature of it's participants to continue to go through doing bonsai not being honest with themselves... There is the measure of how good people are by how much info they can find of the Internet and repeat like parrots, whether right or wrong, and the assumption that the longer one has doing bonsai is clearly evidence that they know alot!!! People this is a myth! I have personally seen this time and time again, so many folks who have been doing this for years, know little more than those who are just starting off. My demos yesterday are proof of this.

So, just be honest with yourself, if you don't know something figure it out! This I'm so cool attitude is only hurting one's progression.

It is often time after time repeated in bonsai that in order to have good bonsai that you need to go out and get the best material possible. Which is true in a lot of ways... but, it does the tree as well as yourself no good to do this if you are not actually ready to work on good material. Right?

I mean from my personal perspective I see this as a way for one to obtain an "Instant Bonsai". Any fool with some money can do this, right? And you often see it done... how many time have you seen people bring their trees to a workshop have Bjorn, Kathy, Ryan Niel, etc. Do all of the work, and bam! They have an "Instant Bonsai", are getting pats on the back, winning awards, etc.

Now of course some of those attending the classes are really learning alot! Others, I think or should say I know, cause I just answered their questions yesterday, are using these types of events just to obtain a nice tree. Yet themselves cannot produce a single tree. Sad...

So, I am going to go out on a limb here and say, it is my personal opinion, that what should be being taught, is that it should not be the concern of those learning to do bonsai to have nice trees...
I know everyone is in a rush here to have "Instant Bonsai", but really for the first about 8 to 10 years one really should be less concerned with making a nice tree, and more concerned about what it takes to accomplish a nice tree.

By this I mean, it is my opinion that instead we should be encouraging folks to go out and by the crappy material, really practice, make mistakes, and really learn! When they finally do go out and purchase "great" material, they will be better off and truly understand where to move forward with the material, and be able to undertake the correct actions that need to be taken with it, to bring the tree to fruition. Instead of the on the job training that is currently taking place.

In younger days I studied under my father who had his own Architectural firm... I wanted to be an Architect as he was. In those days everything was hand drawn... when I first started learning, he used to make me sit and draw day after day straight lines, freehand! Use to annoy the crap out of me... cause I wanted to do some work. He use to tell me I can't do the work until I learn to draw straight line, that this is what was "required" of the work.

So, what is "required" of the work doing Bonsai? Learning how to care for a living tree. How to work with foliage, how to wire, apply guy wires, what it takes to create a tree, to establish taper, a line within the tree... to find a tree within the piece of material!

So... First "New Rule" of this thread...
If you don't know how to determine what makes "Good Material", and have to ask... one has not worked with enough "Crappy" material yet to figure out and more than likely should not be working on it yet.

I mean no disrespect here... just being honest. As one should be with themselves!
Unless one is seeking "Instant Bonsai", one has to be honest, do the time, do the work! Slave away on all the Crappy stuff, you will be happy that you did!

No shame in posting Crappy trees if the work that has been done on them is top notch! Thanks.

 

[GrimLore]

I mean no disrespect here... just being honest. As one should be with themselves!
Unless one is seeking "Instant Bonsai", one has to be honest, do the time, do the work! Slave away on all the Crappy stuff, you will be happy that you did!

No shame in posting Crappy trees if the work that has been done on them is top notch! Thanks.

As usual you post something that says you disrespect others work and "feel" yours is somehow the best of the best... It is getting as old as you showing work on shoutbox and selling a 9USD tree on face book for 200USD. I never have understood why when so many compliment your work you are so disrespectful of others. I also noticed the time of your "shit" posts and the way you never offer ANY advise to others in many fashions. Just plain out cutting remarks and rants - perhaps this is alcohol and/or meth related as so many times is in your area but I myself find NO excuse for your personal BULLSHIT. Wake up, grow up, live in a Community and participate as a good member should or otherwise shut the f up - Your comments are unbearable and unjustified, you rank as an artist "ok" with me but your attitude sucks and you are of 0 use to most of the forum.

Grimmy

 

[A Random User]

Grimmy[/QUOTE

As usual you post something that says you disrespect others work and "feel" yours is somehow the best of the best... It is getting as old as you showing work on shoutbox and selling a 9USD tree on face book for 200USD. I never have understood why when so many compliment your work you are so disrespectful of others. I also noticed the time of your "shit" posts and the way you never offer ANY advise to others in many fashions. Just plain out cutting remarks and rants - perhaps this is alcohol and/or meth related as so many times is in your area but I myself find NO excuse for your personal BULLSHIT. Wake up, grow up, live in a Community and participate as a good member should or otherwise shut the f up - Your comments are unbearable and unjustified, you rank as an artist "ok" with me but your attitude sucks and you are of 0 use to most of the forum.

Grimmy

That's funny...
Cause I am currently offering up tons of good advice if one were to actually read it and not try and just insult me.

If you have a personal problem with me and are going to try and insult me in a negative personal way, then perhaps you should find something better to do with your time. Because clearly you are not adding to anything here bonsai related.

Nothing I have said here has stooped to the level of what you have just posted, in no way was I trying to attack anyone on a personal level, and if one was to read what I have posted, one would find that the whole purpose of the thread was to critique the thought process behind doing bonsai and some of the inherent flaws I and I am sure others see wrong the training process.

So, if you want to try and address me and slander me in such a way, I would instead suggest that you send me a PM, so you don't look like a d$ck! Thanks!

In the meantime I will continue to carry on, cause I think alot of folks might like to hear what I am saying.

 

[GrimLore]

Grimmy[/QUOTE

That's funny...
Cause I am currently offering up tons of good advice if one were to actually read it and not try and just insult me.

If you have a personal problem with me and are going to try and insult me in a negative personal way, then perhaps you should find something better to do with your time. Because clearly you are not adding to anything here bonsai related.

Nothing I have said here has stooped to the level of what you have just posted, in no way was I trying to attack anyone on a personal level, and if one was to read what I have posted, one would find that the whole purpose of the thread was to critique the thought process behind doing bonsai and some of the inherent flaws I and I am sure others see wiring the training process.

So, if you want to try and address me and slander me in such a way, I would instead suggest that you send me a PM, so you don't look like a d$ck! Thanks!

Was tempted to put you on ignore a few times as I have stated you downgrade "anything" other then your own - sorry asshat you are not a master and never will be although your work is creative, artistic, and to some to "nuts'. In Bonsai your attitude sucks no matter what you are saying in your reply - chill man and work with and not against anything you do. I find your artistic skills to be good and although you never replied to me over the years to purchase any item it has no bearing on what I stated. I find you to be offensive and degrading to the community in general and although an OK artist not someone that should EVER disrespect any persons work and rather "try" to bend them to "your way". For the most part I honestly find your way fascinating but of little or no use to this community. I feel you should spend even more time as an artist then with plants and that is my final say to you. I also feel the Community here should for the most part "ignore" your obvious bullshit and take advice from serious members...

Grimmy

 

[Cadillactaste]

For those of you who haven't yet left and have managed to put some of their pride aside, how dare you say some of the things you have said, I can hear it now... In my following posts I will address some of the fundamental flaws I see happening... you can agree with me, or not, makes no difference. Thanks.

Your intentions are to critique the contestants trees? I believe that is what Mr.Pall did in judging. One was honored in such a critique...by Mr.Pall.

I personally thought Mr.Pall did an exceptional job...would have been honored had I participated to have his wisdom and knowledge applied to my own tree. He's an exceptional man...and well respected in the bonsai community. Maybe I'm taking your thread wrong...but, are you implying you feel you could have judged and critiqued better than Mr.Pall himself!?! Because it sure comes off something like that.

 

[A Random User]

Side note... if one had read my second reply, in this post... then perhaps you might understand why I sold a $9 tree for $200...

I did the work and brought the tree to a state of an actual tree that has a very nice potential of being a very nice bonsai.

There are trees that were much further along than mine, you will of noticed. That were going for $1200. I was not out to try and screw someone over and frankly you are kinda wrong to say so. And it really Pisses me off that you are here trying to slander me.

When I paint a picture the paper cost $2, yet folks are paying me for my art. If you don't feel that the price is right for the art, then that is on you. You don't have to buy it! But to try and put it out there that I am ripping people off just shows the character of who you are.

The tree was obviously started at a fair price and clearly went for a fair price, seeing that it would be able to be developed I to the $1200 dollar tree with little effort.

So, how has what I've done been somehow wrong. The piece of bonsai stock that you are paying $200 dollars for from the bonsai nursery, didn't cost $200 dollars for the nursery? Right? So, am I not entitled to make some money on a tree that I took the time to design, spent the wire on, the gas to get, the water to feed, the electricity to power the lights I worked under?

I mean you have alot of nerve even accusing me if this... all this cost money. And in no where did I force someone to place a bid of what they did, nor pay the money they did.

You clearly don't know about all the times I loose money when scrolls or art get lost on the mail or trashed by the post office and I have to either repaint new stuff and send at my own personal expense, or out right just have to refund money to a customer. So, not only did I loose the money that I would of made from the sale of the item, but I also lost money on what I paid for the cost of materials, as well as often shipping, not to mention my time.

I am not doing this just as a hobby I am actually trying to live and pay bills. This is my job. I have spent years perfecting my craft making no money at all. The little amount of money that I do make will never in any shape or form ever add up to the amount of money I have spent getting to this point. So, when you sit in your comfy little desk job twirling your pencil, some of us are just wondering how they are going to explain to their wife, that they can't pay the mortgage on their house this month, because they are trying to sell to cheap bastards who obviously don't have this problem.

 

[Paradox]

Let me address your first point: Lack of knowledge of those you came across during your demo.

Laziness. People are so used to being spoon fed everything. Very few are actually willing to do the work and research and (OMG) read.


As for your second point:Lack The bonsai challenge.

SOME people had months to find material. We had snow on the ground here until the end of March. I had less than one month because nurseries here do not stock plants until April. So I had literally 3 weeks. Youre in FKing Florida so ya YOU had months to find a tree.

Yep I have a job and a husband and a house and other more important things to worry about than a BNut Box store challenge and spending lots of hours driving from nursery to nursery to box store etc.

In fact, I wasnt even going to enter until I took a walk in a nursery after work the second week in April and saw the Ilex I purchased.

 

[GrimLore]

I am not doing this just as a hobby I am actually trying to live and pay bills. This is my job. I have spent years perfecting my craft making no money at all. The little amount of money that I do make will never in any shape or form ever add up to the amount of money I have spent getting to this point.

Then quit "trying" to be a Bonsai artist with a shitty opinion of anyone else... Your art is good and I have attempted to purchase it - problem is no response so I guess you have no concerns about income... Bring it to the plate bish - You are an Artist, creative with plants - your real "shining" is Art so stop shitting on every else and try to help them "if" you can.

Grimmy

 

[Paradox]

I am not doing this just as a hobby I am actually trying to live and pay bills. This is my job. I have spent years perfecting my craft making no money at all. The little amount of money that I do make will never in any shape or form ever add up to the amount of money I have spent getting to this point. So, when you sit in your comfy little desk job twirling your pencil, some of us are just wondering how they are going to explain to their wife, that they can't pay the mortgage on their house this month, because they are trying to sell to cheap bastards who obviously don't have this problem.

This is about the most insulting thing I have ever read.

You know, no one is forcing you to make a living the way you do.
If you cant cut it there are plenty of other jobs out there to provide for your family. You might need to rethink your career choice.

You are not a special snowflake.
Ive spent years and 10s of 1000s of dollars on my education for my career.
I worked full time and went to grad school part time for a better opportunity and basically had no life for years.
Sorry if it paid off for me.

 

[A Random User]

Let me address your first point: Lack of knowledge of those you came across during your demo.

Laziness. People are so used to being spoon fed everything. Very few are actually willing to do the work and research and (OMG) read.


As for your second point:Lack The bonsai challenge.

SOME people had months to find material. We had snow on the ground here until the end of March. I had less than one month because nurseries here do not stock plants until April. So I had literally 3 weeks. Youre in FKing Florida so ya YOU had months to find a tree.

Yep I have a job and a husband and a house and other more important things to worry about than a BNut Box store challenge and spending lots of hours driving from nursery to nursery to box store etc.

In fact, I wasnt even going to enter until I took a walk in a nursery after work the second week in April and saw the Ilex I purchased.

Thanks for the reply... and the putting words in my mouth.
I hear more excuses. Again If you had read my posts you will have noticed. This was not a personal thing, we all could have done better, including myself.
And as much as you and some of the others might not like what I posted, and think I was wrong for doing it, I actually gave you some pretty good advice on how to move forward in bonsai, if you didn't spend so much time just trying to be mad at folks.

As far as your I'm not in f&#@ing Florida comment. .. you will note that I actually went out and bought my tree on the last day. So, here again more excuses...

 

[A Random User]

Then quit "trying" to be a Bonsai artist with a shitty opinion of anyone else... Your art is good and I have attempted to purchase it - problem is no response so I guess you have no concerns about income... Bring it to the plate bish - You are an Artist, creative with plants - your real "shining" is Art so stop shitting on every else and try to help them "if" you can.

Grimmy

I am sorry that I somehow missed your inquiry. I do apologize for this.
I am done discussing anything from here on out with you, on this post and any other.

 

[Paradox]

Excuses? Sorry BNut but Go Fk yourself and the high horese you rode in on.

You want to know what I am doing to learn bonsai?

I just drove 200 plus miles and spent a night in a rather expensive hotel room becuase its memorial day to attend a bonsai class.
The class goes this year and next year.

I went to MABS this year and last year and going next year.
I am going to Baltimore in June.

Dont you dare tell me Im not doing enough.
The BSC was a FUN activity to get people involved and talking about bonsai. It isnt meant to be a world class competition.

Go the hell away, we dont need your shit here anymore.

 

[A Random User]

This is about the most insulting thing I have ever read.

You know, no one is forcing you to make a living the way you do.
If you cant cut it there are plenty of other jobs out there to provide for your family. You might need to rethink your career choice.

You are not a special snowflake.
Ive spent years and 10s of 1000s of dollars on my education for my career.
I worked full time and went to grad school part time for a better opportunity and basically had no life for years.
Sorry if it paid off for me.

Thanks for trying to explain the errors of my way and your compassion.

No way did I say or think I was something special. And at no where will I not except personal responsibility for the choices and actions I have made in life. The choice of career that I have chosen for my self, I love and would not want to be doing any other type of work. I make a lot of sacrifices and will continue to do so to continue to do what I hold a passion for. I am more than willing to pay the price for what I do, and would not have it any other way. However, I don't deserve to be trashed and accused of wrong doing when I have quite literally done nothing wrong. Thanks!

 

[A Random User]

Excuses? Sorry BNut but Go Fk yourself and the high horese you rode in on.

You want to know what I am doing to learn bonsai?

I just drove 200 plus miles and spent a night in a rather expensive hotel room becuase its memorial day to attend a bonsai class.
The class goes this year and next year.

I went to MABS this year and last year and going next year.
I am going to Baltimore in June.

Dont you dare tell me Im not doing enough.
The BSC was a FUN activity to get people involved and talking about bonsai. It isnt meant to be a world class competition.

Go the hell away, we dont need your shit here anymore.

Glad to hear you are attending the classes and making the effort to better your art.
but to use your last reply that you used for me, how is this any different than what anyone else is doing ? You are no special snowflake?

I too drive about 200 miles every month to classes in Ft. Myers. Would drive more if they had more classes. Traveled to Saratoga Springs, NY to participate in styling competitions to better my art, to Sacramento, Ca, to do the same.

So, when your done being so mad and offended, you will perhaps go back and read my second post. Some sound advice for trying to learn. Thanks!

 

[A Random User]

Your intentions are to critique the contestants trees? I believe that is what Mr.Pall did in judging. One was honored in such a critique...by Mr.Pall.

I personally thought Mr.Pall did an exceptional job...would have been honored had I participated to have his wisdom and knowledge applied to my own tree. He's an exceptional man...and well respected in the bonsai community. Maybe I'm taking your thread wrong...but, are you implying you feel you could have judged and critiqued better than Mr.Pall himself!?! Because it sure comes off something like that.

Thanks for the reply. I too agree with you, that Mr. Pall did an awesome job. I even mention this in my post in the competition. I also mentioned on that same thread that I think everyone did a good job. Which I do, I even went through and liked everyone's trees. This does not mean in any way that folks could not do better, of course they can, we all can.
I am not trying to critique trees, he did that so no need...
Just trying to critique everyone's excuses for not doing better! As well as some of the statements regarding that because it was a Big Box store challenge, it really does not matter. As well as the condensing tone of an "Instant Bonsai".
Which seems pretty clear if one was to read what I posted.

 

[Cadillactaste]

Unless you walked a mile in the shoes of another...one can not fully grasp their thoughts, or challenges they faced in the material they chose...it sounds more like belittling to me. Which I for one am glad now that I didn't qualify...because I personally don't see the benefits of going down the path your headed.

You seem to be on a pretty high horse these days...maybe take that horse and head in another direction. Or...ASK of ones if they wish for your thoughts on what you are calling critiquing of their excuses. Your turning a contest ones held in high regards to the judge himself...to something that leaves a sour taste in ones mouths.

 

[Robertji]

Unfortunately, like Mike pointed out I am one of the people who can't see the tree in a piece of material. I have only been getting into bonsai for the last couple of years and for the last year have been a member of a club, though there doesn't seem to be that much that I can learn from there. I think what I am reading in your posts though is to stick with it, work on less than stellar material and learn how to do the basics beyond keeping things alive. I'll take encouragement from that. Maybe you can share some of your journey to how you got here as further inspiration though I expect you have always had the talent, maybe just not the tools.
One thing I can say, in both your scrolls and bonsai you are a very talented artist.