New to Bonsai from NJ

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I don't know what naturally grows by you, or what non-natives to your area have been introduced. So I just threw that out, so that you'd keep an open mind to other possible identities. It probably is a holly.

 

[Orion_metalhead]

Good to know. We will see what comes of it.

 

[Orion_metalhead]

Recently picked up some seeds down in virginia where we recently had a show. Played with friends in Disintegrator and Earthling in Harrisonburg.

From top: Holly, some weird red berry bush with a ton of fruit, and crabapple.

The crabapple and unknown bush seeds sank, which seems to mean they are viable. The holly seeds all floated. Has anyone ever done holly from seed and float tested the seed? I looked online but didnt see any info on float testing the seed prior to ramification.



In other news, my white oak acorns are doing well! The one that had naturally lost its tap root has at least 3 or 4 root tips in my grow container. The other that I float tested started to grow its radicle so I clipped it the other day. On the first acorn that had the long tap root forming which I cut, it has two roots now forming. Im excited to see what happens with them all. You can see the roots forming for the naturally ramified one below.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I love white oaks. I've recently been growing some valley oaks (quercus lobata) that are actually native to California and will grow all the way from northern cal (zone 8) down to San Diego (zone 10). They are extremely strong growers, and have lobed leaves reminiscent of the white oak of the east coast.

They are the only deciduous oak species that will live in southern california. We've got a bunch of live oaks, but only one deciduous.

 

[Orion_metalhead]

I love white oaks. I've recently been growing some valley oaks (quercus lobata) that are actually native to California and will grow all the way from northern cal (zone 8) down to San Diego (zone 10). They are extremely strong growers, and have lobed leaves reminiscent of the white oak of the east coast.

They are the only deciduous oak species that will live in southern california. We've got a bunch of live oaks, but only one deciduous.

I looked up the Valley Oak in the The Audubon Society Field Guide to North American Trees: Western Edition... looks like an awesome species! The lobes on the oaks are really deep and defined, and I like the shape of the Acorns as well! Would these do well in zone 7b on the east coast?

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I looked up the Valley Oak in the The Audubon Society Field Guide to North American Trees: Western Edition... looks like an awesome species! The lobes on the oaks are really deep and defined, and I like the shape of the Acorns as well! Would these do well in zone 7b on the east coast?

I'm not sure... Perhaps if you gave them a little winter protection(?) They are the most vigorous growers that I own. I bought three of them as seedlings and I need to prune them, hard, twice a summer. They are supposedly the largest species of oak in the US, and can live 400+ years. Funny that I lived here for 20 years before I even knew they existed.

 

[Orion_metalhead]

I might order some and have a go at them at some point. Will see how my White Oaks go this summer.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

The Henley Oak is a valley oak, and at 140 feet is the tallest oak in the country.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

For the east, Bur oak has the roughest bark, fissured and plated bark. Very winter hardy, never have to bring it inside in winter. The leaves are large, but they do reduce.

 

[Orion_metalhead]

For the east, Bur oak has the roughest bark, fissured and plated bark. Very winter hardy, never have to bring it inside in winter. The leaves are large, but they do reduce.

Cool. Will try and find some Bur Oak somewhere next autumn. I am a fan of collecting seeds myself so I'll do some research as to where they grow and see if I can find some instead of ordering them online.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Bur Oak has some funky acorns, too

 

[Orion_metalhead]

Bur Oak has some funky acorns, too

Yeah, apparently the largest of the East Coast acorns? Quick research states there is a small pocket of naturalized Bur Oak along the delaware out near Bethlehem, PA. Will try to get over there to hike and collect next autumn, probably Sept / Oct. This is only about 1.5 hrs from me and seems to line up with the Mariton Wildlife Sanctuary. Supposed to be nice hiking there as well. Maybe I can find some there.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ed/Quercus_macrocarpa_range_map_1.png

Just threw some Holly, Crabapple, and some other weird red berry seeds into the fridge for stratification. Will see what happens! I also had some Hibiscus that I put in a pot. I don't think those need any stratification so I'll update in 2-3 weeks if they start to sprout up. These hibiscus are the local deciduous type with small leaves. They back-bud profusely and grow fast. Will see what happens with them.

 

[Orion_metalhead]

Added some American Beech seeds to stratify in the fridge today also after a nice hike this afternoon.

I also found a tree that had a ton of red berries on it in clusters which I stupidly did not take pictures of. The looked like very small hawthorne berries, with some small striations on the fruit indicating three separate chambers inside. When I removed the seeds, each fruit had between four and six seeds inside. Those looked like below. The berries were probably just under 1/4" diameter and grouped in bunches of three or four along the stem. Anyone have any idea? I checked my books and couldn't find anything with the striations.

Going to take 1/3 of these and fridge them. 1/3 outside just in the ground in the yard. The last 1/3 I'll put in a pot in my office and see if they pop up... The tree had deeply fisured bark and about 2ft in diameter trunk. The branches hung low. The tree itself was only about 20-25ft tall. There were no leaves on the tree so I couldn't have been a holly... The berries were similar in size to common hollies.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

A phone photo of the tree with the berries hanging would have really helped with the ID. Berries mashed up are not much of a clue either.

Some red berried shrubs that could be possibilities

deciduous holly, Ilex species, verticillata, or mucronata, or ?
Euonymus - one of the native species or one of the introduced deciduous species.
Lindera benzoin - the native Spice bush
Malus - I think Sargent's crabapple has very small fruit.
Lonicera - many possible species - some have red fruit
Viburnum trilobum - "American cranberry bush'' - it is not at all related to cranberry (Vaccinium) but the fruit is edible. The Viburnum trilobum fruit will hang in the bush or small tree well into the winter. In my area they average about 10 feet tall. There are one or two ornamental Viburnum that have red fruit also, some have become invasives.

a leaf would be nice too, to help sort it out.

 

[Orion_metalhead]

Ill try and take a ride over there saturday to take pictures of bush/berries/leaves

 

[Orion_metalhead]

Some updates on stuff for no good reason:

My first of three viable white oaks started appearing above soil yesterday. Im likely going to buy a grow light bulb... i feel like it will need extra light to keep it healthy til mid i can get it outside into a better pot than my germination container. Is it ok that there is some slight discoloration on the end? I think its just dirt but im not sure.



I float tested two groupings of collected pine seeds. I collected both in upstate ny this fall. Seeds were slightly different. One was from a pitch pine and the other from some other weird mountainy pine bush... having a decent success rate in the float tests. Ill plant them tomorrow and toss in the fridge for a few weeks. Planning on using a peat moss and sand mixture for germination. Tips on propagating these, I'd love to hear.



If anyone knows what type of seeds these are feel free to guess. The lighter color one is definitely a localized pitch pine to near Minnewaska State Park / Sam's Point area. The other was from a low scrubby pine bush in the same area that had different type of cone. The seeds are both black and triangular in shape. I need to take pictures of seed sources from here on out.

 

[Orion_metalhead]

A review of what I have working as seeds at the moment.

1. Quercus Alba - 3 currently germinated seeds growing.
2. Hibiscus Syriacus - 10 seeds soak tested and sown.
3. Liriodendron Tulipifera - 10 - 15 tree-collected seeds. I did cut tests on a few of them and seemed viable.
4. Crabapple (Unknown species) - 6 seeds soak tested viable.
5. Ilex - 10 - 12 seeds soak tested but no response. Sown anyway. Aware of the length of time for stratification on these.
6. Fagus Grandifolia - 2 viable seeds soak tested and 4 floaters sown.
7. Thuja occidentalis - 10 seeds simply put in the same pot as some other seeds to see what they do.
8. Pinus Rigida - 2 different species, roughly 30 seeds of each float tested viable.

Also some seeds from some berry tree which is as yet undefined. I believe they are some sort of Hawthorne. Also some from a bush from Virginia. Idk... we will see what happens with all of this stuff. Going to be fun just seeing what actually grows.

I would like most of all for the oaks, hibiscus, crabapple, and pitch pines to do well. The rest, I'll be happy if I get something from them.

 

[eryk2kartman]

By looking at the seeds i dont think anyone will be able to tell you much about them.
By any chance do you have a photos of Mother trees ? it will be easier to guess

Anyway, great to see people growing from seeds, i like it a lot, good lesson and you can learn a lot.

Apart of the seeds i bought i went around and collected native seeds as well, so have couple of white oak, some unknown crab apple, howthorn(i dont think it will grow this year - it needs more than a year of strat so if nothing show up this spring i wont be keeping it till the next one) and local pine/spruce/larch seeds

Im really looking forward
if they all grow i will have no more room in my backgarden

 

[rockm]

I looked up the Valley Oak in the The Audubon Society Field Guide to North American Trees: Western Edition... looks like an awesome species! The lobes on the oaks are really deep and defined, and I like the shape of the Acorns as well! Would these do well in zone 7b on the east coast?

No. It won't, it's hardy to USDA zone 7-9. It might squeak by in N.J., but unless you know what you're doing and have adequate overwintering facilities, it's not going to be very good.

Best oak by far to use in the east is Willow Oak (quercus phellos). Cold hardy, backbuds readily, can be found in good sizes at nurseries. Easily collectible in larger (over 5 inches diameter) sizes from the wild. Naturally shallow root mass. Small narrow leaves that reduce.

White Oak (Quercus alba) is not all that terrific for bonsai. It is a hard-to-manage forest giant that doesn't respond well to bonsai techniques. For instance leaf pruning-which can be used to reduce leaf size and increase ramification--can result in white oak responding with LARGER leaves to compensate. Also hard to collect because of typically huge tap roots.

If you want to get a handle on the best native species to use as bonsai, poke around on Zach Smith's Bonsai South Web site...It can give you an idea of what species or relatives that work east of the Mississippi. Also, Californians have more than a few species of oaks to work with for bonsai. By and large those species won't work very well here in the cold wet east.

 

[Orion_metalhead]

Ill look into willow oak. Thanks! I know the White Oak isnt best, its just very easy to find around here and mess with. Will see what happens. If they dont do well, i'll just plant them in the ground and see what happens.