New World
- Thread starter irene_b
- Start date
A Single Tree has no competition and grows without a struggle.
If Nature was so bad a Stylest why do we steal from her?
Perhaps the rules of Japan should be set aside.
Perhaps the illusion is the illusion.
Irene
I think you broke all of the rules
I like what you've done, and Im interested in the developement of this piece...
When I see this piece I think of an area trying to recover after deforestation/fire. Each started their growth at about the same time...and each fighting for a spot. It seems to be a chaotic, cut throat race for survival...there are no rules (even number of trees, no front, all the same age) because in the race for survival there aren't any....In a normal forest this race has already been won. Most bonsai enthusiasts base their schema of how a group planting should look based upon an older forest. Thank you Irene for breaking this schema for me... One of the other threads talked about what species our country has to offer bonsai....I would like to think our culture has to offer/define the rules for group plantings like this... Brilliant!
I think a wise man once said, "Don't try to make your tree look like a bonsai, try to make your bonsai look like a tree" There are rules in nature that we try to replicate in bonsai...but some rules in bonsai are incomplete...Our rules for bonsai do not cover all of the processes that occur within nature. Isn't it our goal to get our trees to look as natural as possible? What's more natural than a forest recovering after a fire/deforestation?
Someone once asked about the term wabi-sabi....This is it!
In me it brings out the sadness of the destruction while, at the same time, realizing the battle for life these young trees are waging upon each other. In nature when you see this many new trees "racing" each other you know there will be only one or two of the twelve that will survive to live a long fruitful life...But at the same time you need to appriciate the lot of them for fighting.
oh well....Im probably just full of *^%* ...........and coffee.....
Perhaps I did
And I thank You for reading me so well! Indeed it is not a easy piece to recreate after a destruction.
John Naka was a very wonderful teacher
Your thoughts matter just as much as mine or any other member here.
Mom
hehe you're about as positive as a box of cathodes....
Tsk Tsk Tsk.....This is below you son!
You can change how you think and respond but you cannot force others to think and respond.
If he chooses to think or respond in a negative fashion....It should not impact how you think and respond.
Mom
Let it go son......believe me it is not worth your time.....
Bonsai Artist are deep thinkers and deep feelers and tend to react strongly when something is applied sounding negative.
This is a relatively new forum and still has some kinks to be worked out or removed, but I think it is starting to go forward pretty well.
I do hope you stay here and join in more often....It is a way to grow...
There are other sites www.bonsaitalk.com (my home base), www.internetbonsai.org, www.bonsaichat.org,,,each is good.
Mom
Anonymous User
Banned
I quoted Irene in one post and only in response to your negative comment stating that I was negative. If stating that letting a tree grow however it will is not an idealistic plan for creating bonsai is negative or condescending, I'm guilty.
Will
Anonymous User
Banned
You'll need to explain this Irene, nature is a poor stylist as far as bonsai is concerned, when is the last time you seen a perfectly formed two foot high tree in nature, needing no adjustments to be visually pleasing? We turn to nature for inspiration, we do not just let a tree grow however it will in a pot, it won't work, there are zero examples of this and to suggest that a bonsai can be created in this manner is counter-productive at the least.
Please point out any Japanese rules that suggest that we should just let a tree grow as it will, without intervention.
Will
If nature is a poor stylist why do you steal her style?
I collected more than a few perfect trees last March. Perfect height, perfect nebari, perfect roots!
Created by Nature who did a damm fine job without mankind touching it!
Why is it counter productive? And who does it offend?
And why the hell should I follow the rules laid out by Japan!
I am American and care less for the rules of Japan or the cookie cutter styles they teach or the many "S" shaped trees they feel we like!
This forest is for me and my joy and if it pleases others great! But if no one person likes it I could care less!
Irene
Behr
Yamadori
Damn-it Ms. Irene...You have been listening to me far too much...You may need to drop that attitude in order to get along with some of the 'proper' bonsai people...Remember bonsai is 'politics' first and art second...Without bowing to those in power [the bonsai politicians] you will never get far in the world of bonsai...
Regards
Behr
Damn-it Ms. Irene...You have been listening to me far too much...You may need to drop that attitude in order to get along with some of the 'proper' bonsai people...Remember bonsai is 'politics' first and art second...Without bowing to those in power [the bonsai politicians] you will never get far in the world of bonsai...
Regards
Behr
LOL Never would I stop listening to you Behr!
Perhaps but not likely to happen in my lifetime Behr!
Perhaps they need to be knocked off the pedalstools that they have placed themselfs on!
Politicians= Pile of ticks.....They suck the life blood out of the human!
Irene
Chris Johnston
Omono
Damn-it Ms. Irene...You have been listening to me far too much...You may need to drop that attitude in order to get along with some of the 'proper' bonsai people...Remember bonsai is 'politics' first and art second...Without bowing to those in power [the bonsai politicians] you will never get far in the world of bonsai...
Regards
Behr
Well, here it comes around again.
Irene, do what you wish. It's your tree. However, to be as good an iconoclast (Will can look it up) as Behr, you should really be able to produce trees at his level. It's not a personal thing, it's just far easier for Walter or Behr to say, "See, I broke the rules and here's why," because their trees are at such a high level. In other words, their art has a great deal of craft in it.
If I take my ficus which has the S-shaped trunk, and cut it back hard, and let it grow as it will, I believe it will not be a bonsai. It will be a houseplant.
(God I hate this next part.) One of the reasons I have tried so hard to get to a proper definition of art is because it takes skill and technique to produce it. Finally we may all agree on that. What Will is saying, which I agree with, is that if someone were to produce a forest like this and then leave it untouched, it would just be a mess.
His fault is his (as mentioned by others) his condescending tone. I am truly coming to believe that he cannot help it, and would not change it if he could.
If you want a less snarky tone and less pretentious attitude, you are welcome to help me restart MADbonsai. Anyone who comes with that kind of tone will not be welcome.
Chris I welcome your words and can only aspire to be as good as Behr....He is a fantastic Artist as is Walter and their work is of the highest caliper. My Gingko forest is not finished but it is as I so choose it to be at this time in its life, and it was made for my viewing pleasure and I chose to share it here. Not everyone here wishes to be compared to Japan and we strike off on our own path. I can see this in Behr's work as well as Walters....Why would we want to be placed in such a tightly controlled structured unbendable rules and guidelines that do not work for American trees? I enjoy the freedom of America and all the trees we have here has their own beauty. Perhaps this is just the starting of the birthing pains for Bonsai to be as American as it was for Japan. I see this in the work from California as well as Italy as well as other places....Bonsai as an Art is growing and pains will come with it.
Irene
grouper52
Masterpiece
Zappa, I'm not sure what it is about the confluence of bonsai and the internet that certain individuals in almost every forum act so badly. I'm not sure if the forums attract such people or breed them, but it's a real problem. The more I was involved in one forum, the more I noticed that I myself was even starting to act like an a**hole. Perhaps there's something about the atmosphere in general that's a bit toxic.
For the most part I find it helpful to think of two metaphors, either seeing certain people as tar babies or porcupines, or seeing their posts as bait - something an old grouper like myself knows something about. In either case, ignoring the bait or keeping one's distance from the tar babies/porcupines seem to be the best strategy. Makes life here on the forums much less aggrevating.
Hope you stick around.
grouper52
Anonymous User
Banned
It seems some people are trying desperately to make this discussion one about politics, personal feelings, imagined tones, other forums, or anything else but the subject. This is the problem with many forums today, the few who are incapable, unable, or unwilling to simply discuss a topic and stay on subject.
Please show us these "perfect" trees you collected Irene, post some pictures, you certainly are the first to do so and this would be a historic event. have you entered these in any shows, contests, or exhibits yet? Man, what I would give to have a perfect tree that nature created and that needs no pruning, wiring, or styling at all.
Seriously, what is counter-productive is suggesting that a bonsai (forest or otherwise) can be created without human intervention, that a feasible plan of action would be just to allow the branches to grow and set wherever they want to. This is not what people learning bonsai should take to heart, following such thoughts will only lead to overgrown, sloppy plants in pots.
Nature creates some beautiful trees, this is a given. Many even serve as inspiration for bonsai, bonsai can suggest natural trees, in fact it should, but it can't be natural trees, it just won't work for many reasons, height to trunk ratio, number of branches, to name a couple.
Walter Pall creates the most natural looking bonsai in the world, so natural that some have accused him of doing nothing to the tree, just letting them grow Willy nilly as you suggest....but nothing could be farther from the truth. Every single branch is wired on his trees, sometimes many time, each branch is carefully selected and groomed, and very visual aspect of the tree is created by him. He creates the illusion of a tree untouched by human hands, the reality is that there is not one single bonsai of any value that is actually untouched.
Simply letting a tree grow wild in a pot will not produce what you seek to imitate in nature, mainly because of scale and proportion, but also because of all the billions of trees out there, only a few of them inspire us in bonsai, the rest do not fit the artistic qualifications needed due to many reasons, such as the natural bend of a branch due to the weight of the foliage, the environment, snow, etc...a bonsai will never have the weight or be exposed to the environment to duplicate this, hence intervention is needed. I could go on and on, but the point is clear, without human intervention, all you will have is a mess.
As to the Japanese rules, I misunderstood you and thought you were defending your words by saying they aligned with such, when in fact you were just saying to hell with them. Swaying from the rules is acceptable, but only if it works, breaking such does not make anyone an automatic artist, nor does it guarantee success artistically. However, giving up selective pruning and purposeful pruning is quite different from bending a rule or two, it is actually going against the basic principles of design and leaving any outcome to pure random chance, a good outcome is highly unlikely and if obtained, can never be duplicated.
In my experience Irene, most of the "S" shaped imports seem to come from China, not Japan. I find little use for these as well.
When you post a tree or an idea on a public forum, you put it up for critique, positive and negative, if a piece is for only your own joy, why post it?
I personally do not see a lot in your forest yet, the height of the trees and the thickness of the trunks are too close in size, giving a lack of depth and dimension. The rocks look like they were pulled from a pile and just sat on the soil instead of looking like they belong there. I do like the idea presented and think it has promise. With some thinner trees (no need to go larger) added in the rear and maybe the sides, better rock placement, and some selective pruning, this could look really good without waiting for years or for random chance of branch placement.
Will
Chris Johnston
Omono
Irene, all I can say is that you seem to have a huge misunderstanding of the Japanese practice of bonsai. Making it all about rules and structure and straitjackets is an unfortunate result of American enthusiasts taking John Naka's books to the extreme. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
BONSAI_OUTLAW
Banned
I have been reading the posts in this thread over the last couple of days and I would just like to say Chris....You look real cute in your new avatar.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
In nature, or better said in the woods, you do not find a forest where all trees are the same diameter around naturally except in areas where old growth forest has been logged off and replanted with new trees all of the same age. If this is what pleases you that's fine.
On another point if you did not want criticism, expecting praise only; assuming that you knew what you were doing was against what most bonsaiist thought, believed, and practiced, you should have kept it to your self. But; once you put things like this up on the net you invite comments; good, bad and indifferent.
On another point if you did not want criticism, expecting praise only; assuming that you knew what you were doing was against what most bonsaiist thought, believed, and practiced, you should have kept it to your self. But; once you put things like this up on the net you invite comments; good, bad and indifferent.
Anonymous User
Banned
True, but in addition to the facts you posted, we must remember that to obtain realism, we aim for a sense of depth and perspective in bonsai, especially with forests where the differing trunk sizes and tree heights give such illusion. When all the trunks are the same size, the appear to be also at the same distance from the viewer. While we may use other tricks to fool the eye, such as placing trees behind each other or other objects, these fall dramatically short when compared with the visual effect of using thicker and higher trunks in the front and shorter and thinner trunks in the rear or at the sides.
There is some merit in attempting to portray a younger group or forest, in fact I lamented about the lack of representation of youth in bonsai before. However, even a young, newly emerging forest must have perspective and depth to be successful.
Will
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
That's true but from the beginning of this thread I was under the impression that dealing with the finner points of design, perspective, and illusion were not important so I have pretty much kept silent till now. I think very soon I will wish I had remained so.
Bill S
Masterpiece
Ok Ok Ok I will shoulder this one - I should have followed my original statement with "I realize that Irene would know that just an original planting will not tend to itself and make a bonsai.
As far as condesending remarks go they started with someone that played no part of the original post, and chimed in because he didn't like a reply. Well this is a bonsai site and 98% of what we know about bonsai comes from historic rules from Asia, so throwing out rules to suit an individuals ego is NOT what we should be doing. Sorry but you may not agree with Will, and if you look he was responding to what I put out there, but what he said is NOT wrong. Bashing a post because Will Heaths name procedes it IS wrong,
I also am one that doesn't pussy foot around things that are what they are, if you don't like it create your own art/craft/skillset/technique call it what you want and make you own rules. But stop bitchin about bonsai enthusiasts sticking to rules that go back probably a mimimum of a thousand years( see post about oldest tree) because you do not wish to use them, or your ego bruises when you don't hear what you want. Grow some skin.
I do believe that was clear enough, so you know where I stand, don't like it - tough get over it, or go someplace where everyone is nice. Good luck finding it, because life is life and where ever you go not everyone will agree with you, or play your games to make you feel good, thats your mothers job.
Sorry end of rant.
By the way none of this has any reflection on how I feel about Irenes work, she has shown over time to be pretty competant when it comes to bonsai, I respect her thoughts, work, and ideals.
As far as condesending remarks go they started with someone that played no part of the original post, and chimed in because he didn't like a reply. Well this is a bonsai site and 98% of what we know about bonsai comes from historic rules from Asia, so throwing out rules to suit an individuals ego is NOT what we should be doing. Sorry but you may not agree with Will, and if you look he was responding to what I put out there, but what he said is NOT wrong. Bashing a post because Will Heaths name procedes it IS wrong,
I also am one that doesn't pussy foot around things that are what they are, if you don't like it create your own art/craft/skillset/technique call it what you want and make you own rules. But stop bitchin about bonsai enthusiasts sticking to rules that go back probably a mimimum of a thousand years( see post about oldest tree) because you do not wish to use them, or your ego bruises when you don't hear what you want. Grow some skin.
I do believe that was clear enough, so you know where I stand, don't like it - tough get over it, or go someplace where everyone is nice. Good luck finding it, because life is life and where ever you go not everyone will agree with you, or play your games to make you feel good, thats your mothers job.
Sorry end of rant.
By the way none of this has any reflection on how I feel about Irenes work, she has shown over time to be pretty competant when it comes to bonsai, I respect her thoughts, work, and ideals.
