Newbie in at the deep end

[Bon Sigh]

Hi friends,
I am new to bonsai, but over the past few months, I have been reading, watching videos and experimenting on my own with nursery stock in several species and have been content to learn by making mistakes.

Now, however, I have an opportunity that I don't want to mess up. A developer is letting me harvest a spectacular pine specimen (species unknown). It is a beautiful tree, about 3ft tall perhaps 4 ft square, with multiple thick trunks with a ton of movement, great nibari, etc. It is growing in the front bed at a house that is being torn down. Because it is against a house and concrete steps and next to a driveway, I suspect it is already growing with a root system that is at least somewhat constrained.

So, suddenly I have potentially a spectacular tree that might be decades old. How to I do this without messing it up? I am thinking of digging it out and planting it in a pot. Can I go straight to a bonsai style pot with an akadama-gravel-sphagnum mix? Is there an intermediate step? I assume I will eventually reduce this to one trunk. Should I do that at the same time as moving to a pot or is it better to wait?

 

[Cypress187]

Welcome to the forum!

I'm bad with conifers, I heard not to chop/prune more than 30%. I think a training pot is the best to start with.

 

[Shogun610]

Keep as much as possible for roots if you can. Use pumice for a collected Pine. Then let it recover for a season or two. If it pushes new growth in spring you might be able to lightly style but don’t touch roots for 2 years.

 

[thatguy]

Most often collected trees get placed in a large box that you may build to fit the entire (or whatever you can get out of the ground) rootball. Also large/deep tubs can be used too. The important parts seem to be obtaining as much of the roots as possible, securing it very well into the box/pot (you don't want the tree to move around while it is trying to develop new roots), and leaving it in a partially to fully shaded spot to recuperate for a period of time. This spot should also be free from strong winds which will both move the tree (bad) and accelerate transpiration (drying out) on a tree with a strained root system. Usually misting the leaves/needles is called for since the roots will not be able to take up as much water as they would if they were healthy/undamaged.

Now, I've never done this and have only been researching so take that advice with a huge block of salt. Hopefully some more seasoned yamadori experts will come in and provide their info along with tips on collecting pines specifically. Interesting opportunity you've got and since it will be destroyed if you don't take it there is no downside to trying imo!

 

[Bon Sigh]

So, summarizing advice so far (and thanks to those who've chimed in):
1. Take as much of the existing root system as possible and keep the existing soil.
2. Replant in a wooden box just a little larger (or a training pot?) and ensure it doesn't move.
3. Fill spaces with pumice.
4. Do not do any cutting or styling this year.

Questions:
-Is a training pot really ok? If so, where do I find a big one?
-It seems to me that removing part of the tree might mean the remaining roots have less to support. Is that fallacious reasoning?

 

[Shibui]

Just to be different and to let you know there are alternatives - I generally shake off as much of the garden soil as will easily come away from the roots. Garden soil can cause all sorts of problems in pots so i find it is better to get rid of it before it causes grief.
I also shorten thick roots where possible but how much is tempered by how many finer feeder roots are present. You don't need loads of feeder roots but do need some to maintain the tree while new roots grow. Most of the trees I collect are broadleaf and deciduous but I transplant 10-20 pines and junipers each winter here and now get 90+% survival. A lot will depend on your location and climate. To get better advice you should add a location o or profile.

Any sort of container is OK provided it is wide enough and deep enough to take the roots you dig. I've found that the pot will almost always need to be 50% or more bigger than you imagined so be prepared with some sort of backup plan.
Wood grow boxes are relatively easy to make from shipping pallets or store bought lumber. Plastic tubs or boxes can be used after drilling holes in the base for drainage. You can use a largish bonsai pot if you like but that's pretty expensive.
Good drainage is desirable so pumice sounds fine and is what I see many experienced collectors there using. Just be aware of the water requirements of growing in pumice.

I generally remove some branches when collecting trees. I believe that helps reduce water demands on reduced roots but there is lots of evidence now that having intact growing tips on branches will help to grow new roots. Trees with plenty of intact foliage left do seem to recover better than those that are pruned back hard so rather than an all over reduction I now take out any obviously redundant (to future bonsai design) branches or trunks an leave the rest.

Most trees need a year of growth to feed good new roots and refill energy reserves before any more stress. Pines tend to be slower to regrow and may look fine until mid summer before expiring. If they survive the first year they might even require another year to have enough new roots to cope with styling. You must let the tree decide.

The original photo appears very blurry on my screen but from the size and shape I'd suggest this would be a mugho pine cultivar.
3' tall and 4' wide is fairly big. The tree could weigh 40-50 kg. Add soil and you may double that weight. Trees always seem to weigh a lot more than anticipated. They also seem to expand as you dig so will actually be quite a bit bigger when you actually dig it up. I hope you have a pickup truck to take it home in. Some friends with large muscles and relatively small brains can be very useful when digging trees like this but keep reminding them no beer until after the job is finished.

 

[Bon Sigh]

Just to be different and to let you know there are alternatives - I generally shake off as much of the garden soil as will easily come away from the roots. Garden soil can cause all sorts of problems in pots so i find it is better to get rid of it before it causes grief.
I also shorten thick roots where possible but how much is tempered by how many finer feeder roots are present. You don't need loads of feeder roots but do need some to maintain the tree while new roots grow. Most of the trees I collect are broadleaf and deciduous but I transplant 10-20 pines and junipers each winter here and now get 90+% survival. A lot will depend on your location and climate. To get better advice you should add a location o or profile.

Any sort of container is OK provided it is wide enough and deep enough to take the roots you dig. I've found that the pot will almost always need to be 50% or more bigger than you imagined so be prepared with some sort of backup plan.
Wood grow boxes are relatively easy to make from shipping pallets or store bought lumber. Plastic tubs or boxes can be used after drilling holes in the base for drainage. You can use a largish bonsai pot if you like but that's pretty expensive.
Good drainage is desirable so pumice sounds fine and is what I see many experienced collectors there using. Just be aware of the water requirements of growing in pumice.

I generally remove some branches when collecting trees. I believe that helps reduce water demands on reduced roots but there is lots of evidence now that having intact growing tips on branches will help to grow new roots. Trees with plenty of intact foliage left do seem to recover better than those that are pruned back hard so rather than an all over reduction I now take out any obviously redundant (to future bonsai design) branches or trunks an leave the rest.

Most trees need a year of growth to feed good new roots and refill energy reserves before any more stress. Pines tend to be slower to regrow and may look fine until mid summer before expiring. If they survive the first year they might even require another year to have enough new roots to cope with styling. You must let the tree decide.

The original photo appears very blurry on my screen but from the size and shape I'd suggest this would be a mugho pine cultivar.
3' tall and 4' wide is fairly big. The tree could weigh 40-50 kg. Add soil and you may double that weight. Trees always seem to weigh a lot more than anticipated. They also seem to expand as you dig so will actually be quite a bit bigger when you actually dig it up. I hope you have a pickup truck to take it home in. Some friends with large muscles and relatively small brains can be very useful when digging trees like this but keep reminding them no beer until after the job is finished.

Shibui, Thanks for this. I am in Maryland, meaning mildish winters with the occasional cold snap (zone 6b). I do have access to a pickup, but maybe not the muscle in these socially distant times. I will aim to get by with some combination of ramps, levers and teenage children. A pallet box is a great idea.

 

[sorce]

Welcome to Crazy!

Grab some of that old wood back yonder and make it a grow box!

Sorce

 

[ShadyStump]

I'll throw in an amateur's two cents. I have no bonsai to sleek of yet- just sticks in pots and my latest two piñon pine victims collected last month- but I've killed enough pines now to tell you what it takes to kill them.
DO NOT PRUNE THE FOLIAGE. Allot of tree funerals for this mistake. Pines live on their foliage like elms or maples live on their roots. If there's foliage it can keep holding on.
At the same time, Yes: as much root as possible, and avoid cutting any to fit a container.
My preference for training soil is large sized inorganic (I'm a cheapscate on a budget so I just use gravel off the roadside or whatnot) with just enough organic/compost/mulch to help fill in the gaps between particles. Mix in a shovel full or two of the soil it came from. This causes bifurcation of the new roots into lots of fine roots and helps maintain an even moisture level if you miss a watering for some reason and inoculates the new soil using a microbiome it's familiar with.
Mostly, I agree with others and am also more informed myself. You'll know for sure by summer I imagine.

 

[Orion_metalhead]

I like shibui's advice on this as far as care goes. My only adjustment would be to reused some of the old soil in the new grow bix mixture. Mixing some of the old soil with the pumice mixture may be advantagous in promoting new roots through preexisting mychorizzal relationships in the soil. The key is provide good drainage in the new mix.

I would do a one part old soil to 3 pts pumice mixture as your filler mix. I might also add some crushed fir or pine bark, if you can come across it.

 

[leatherback]

Some friends with large muscles and relatively small brains can be very useful when digging trees like this but keep reminding them no beer until after the job is finished.

Hahaha, never admit that this is why you select them!

 

[leatherback]

Trees always seem to weigh a lot more than anticipated. They also seem to expand as you dig so will actually be quite a bit bigger when you actually dig it up.

True.

One thing to add: Even though the tree will be massive and solid in the pot after planting up.. TO the wind it is just a toy. Do make sure you make a stable connection to the growbox, e.g., a number of guy wires to the pot rime after wiring in and potting up. This will stop movement and aid in root recovery.

 

[Bon Sigh]

UPDATE: Thank you all for your advice - I welcome any other insights. I ended up having to dig this tree out with no notice on a work day, which meant I dashed to the garden center for a planter instead of building one from the pallets I'd scavenged. It is a plastic bowl with a single drainage hole in the bottom. It isn't what I wanted, but hope it the tree will recover in it for a couple of years. It is wired by a couple of big roots, but I could add guy wires too. As the photos show, digging the tree out involved a certain amount of demolition work of the surrounding brick and concrete planter (fun!). I tried to keep the root/soil system intact, but the soil was powdery and the roots came out fairly bare and did not seem extensive. I'd say 24" by 24" and perhaps 9" deep, but not dense and few feeder roots. I planted it in pumice, with several shovels-full of original soil placed around the roots. I didn't have quite enough pumice, so there is bark mulch on top now, which I can replace with more pumice when it comes. It is resting in a shady spot. I've been watering twice a day and assume I won't feed it until spring, but thoughts welcome.

 

[ShadyStump]

Wow! These latest pics really show why you were excited about this one. So much potential. Best of luck.

In the rocky retain my region is named for, I always have the same problem of roots coming out bare and not much fine feeder roots. I just cross my fingers and wait. What @leatherback said about wind and wires I'd very true. WHATEVER it takes to hold it firm.
Only chipping in because us newbs on the steep side need to stick together.

 

[thatguy]

You could go under the pot with a length of rope, pass it over a crotch in the trunk area where the branches split, then tie it tightly. Do the same perhaps if necessary to make an X if it still seems less than perfectly stable/tied into the pot. I'd take care not to overwater. Often when roots are dug out the trauma causes them to need some time to recover and then to develop fine feeder roots. Until that point they can't take up water very well. So misting the needles would be a better course of action I think. But please err on the advice of more seasoned yamadori and bonsai practitioners, I'm just a somewhat well informed newb myself!

The tying in technique is something like this:

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Great looking tree! As others have said, make sure you anchor the tree in the pot so it doesn't shift, particularly with winter winds around the corner. Otherwise do not prune it, but I would recommend you reach into the interior of the tree and gently clean out all the old needles and any miscellaneous debris. Don't pluck any needles - you are simply trying to open up the interior to sun and air.

 

[essdoesbonsai]

Awesome tree! Good luck

 

[LeoMame]

amazing @Bon Sigh , I would clean a bit of the old, brown foliage to help the green one thriving with extra air and sunlight, then as others said wait for one or two growing season to be absolutely sure the tree recovered well from the repotting and is in full health. Then you'll have fun with it!

 

[Bon Sigh]

Great looking tree! As others have said, make sure you anchor the tree in the pot so it doesn't shift, particularly with winter winds around the corner. Otherwise do not prune it, but I would recommend you reach into the interior of the tree and gently clean out all the old needles and any miscellaneous debris. Don't pluck any needles - you are simply trying to open up the interior to sun and air.

Thank you. I have been removing dead needles and branches. It is satisfying and makes the tree look cleaner and healthier.