Nursery pine, gift from my wife.
- Thread starter PierreR
- Start date
Eric Group
Masterpiece
I respectfully disagree sir-
I do not think all dwarfs are grafted. At a regular (not Bonsai) nursery, maybe they would be, but there is no requirement it be grafted... And just to further the semantics: I think generally the whole point of doing that type of graft is TO put them on a different/ more vigorous root stock... Just saying... "Not always..." Could probably read more like they are NEVER grafted onto the same CULTIVAR... Not picking on you man, just clarifying!
If it was some special cultivar of JM- yeah, almost certainly would have been grafted... Most fruit trees you buy in a box store seem to be grafted... Pines? Not necessarily.. I have never bought a grafted one personally, and only even seen a few! I own a Dwarf Scott's and it certainly is not a graft. Tiny, cute little thing, but it is on it's own roots!
Looking at this tree... Hard to tell. There is some swelling a couple inches up and it seems the bark is smoother below it- could be an old graft, or could just be that part of the trunk was partially buried for some of the tree's life...
barrosinc
Masterpiece
There seems to be two different barks...
PierreR
Shohin
The entire portion below the red line barrosinc drew above was indeed below the soil level when I reported the tree. I'm gonna take a better look at the other side tomorrow.
Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
It's probably not a big deal if it's grafted. Where problems occur is when the scion and the stock have 2 different growth rates. Corkbark black pines and JWP grafted on black pine rootstock typically give this process a bad name in bonsai.
The tag reads "Pinus sylvestris", and doesn't identity the cultivar as part of the botanical name, but the tag also misspells Scots, so the credibility is already gone IMO.
For something to be a named cultivar (cultivated variety; clone) like Green Penguin, it must be, by definition, cultivated by graft or cutting, or in some cases, tissue culture.
The tag reads "Pinus sylvestris", and doesn't identity the cultivar as part of the botanical name, but the tag also misspells Scots, so the credibility is already gone IMO.
For something to be a named cultivar (cultivated variety; clone) like Green Penguin, it must be, by definition, cultivated by graft or cutting, or in some cases, tissue culture.
Txhorticulture
Chumono
I see the confusion I wasn't trying to say dwarfs need be grafted just that this cultivar would be.
That is a cultivaTed variety (cultivar) called 'green penquin' (BVF is correct though the cultivar epithet should be in single quotes) so it has to be a clone, doesn't matter if it is a dwarf cultivar or a variegated cultivar, weeping, whatever. Cultivars are by definition clones. Very few pines can be propagated by cuttings. (I can only recall hearing of mugo) So they are grafted. Picture shows a graft union, that's why it was buried btw.
Good news is that it isn't a particularly ugly union and scots pine understock is cheap and widely available so it was probably grated onto same species at least. But that isn't always the case. For example all white pine cultivars (more than a dozen different species) are almost always grafeed on strobus or strobiformis roots. Some conifers are grafted onto roots from an entirely different genus.
Txhorticulture
Chumono
Oh and Pierre I'm not trying to criticize the tree I think it's neat. I'd go back and get another for the yard if I were you. I just did a search for green penguin and they are cute little trees.
PierreR
Shohin
The little lady got me on the "watch" list... I fear the tree purchasing could be on hold this year... (We will see Haha!)
Txhorticulture
Chumono
Welcome to the club.
qwade
Shohin
Pinus Sylvestris is commonly referred to as Scotch pine. Especially in the US. This was no misprint. Scots and Scotch are both 'common' names and have no Botanical nomenclature.
Txhorticulture
Chumono
Not a misprint but it is an anachronism. It's like calling someone from Scotland scotch. They don't like it. He or she is a Scot.
PierreR
Shohin
Another flush of growth so late in the year? (Yes, needle cast. Sprayed for it)
Txhorticulture
Chumono
No big deal. Called Lammas growth.it will stop in its track when it gets cooler and pick up again in spring with no ill effect
Bunjeh
Chumono
You have a wife who appreciates your interests. That, my friend, is gold.
Leo in N E Illinois
The Professor
- Messages
- 11,494
- Reaction score
- 23,863
- USDA Zone
- 5b
Pierre, your wife's gift is a great tree. P. sylvestris 'Green Penguin' is a nice cultivar, from Dave Dewire's catalog at Wabi Sabi/Dragonfly farm,
"This Scotch Pine cultivar has unusual growth in that the older needles are longer and the newer ones shorter. It grows into a small mound of green needles and has a lot of character. Like any pine, it just wants full sun and fast draining soil and it will tolerate a lot of neglect."
Dave DeWire's photo is a very small (young) grafted tree with only a couple whorls of branches. Looks like the 'Green Penguin' will have more buds at the nodes than typical P. sylvestris. It should make a decent bonsai in time.
I believe Max's red line does mark the graft line. Since the tree was being produced for your half of Canada, most likely they used standard Pinus sylvestris as understock. So the roots should be just as hardy as the scion. They should fuse, and in time, a decade or so, the graft union will be totally invisible. I would not worry at all about the graft creating problems. EXCEPT, if you wire this tree, do not try to make a bend anywhere near the graft point. While the graft looks well along on being fused, it will never be as strong as a normal wood. It will break instead of bend. So just remember to not try to make bends below the first set of branches.
Great gift.
"This Scotch Pine cultivar has unusual growth in that the older needles are longer and the newer ones shorter. It grows into a small mound of green needles and has a lot of character. Like any pine, it just wants full sun and fast draining soil and it will tolerate a lot of neglect."
Dave DeWire's photo is a very small (young) grafted tree with only a couple whorls of branches. Looks like the 'Green Penguin' will have more buds at the nodes than typical P. sylvestris. It should make a decent bonsai in time.
I believe Max's red line does mark the graft line. Since the tree was being produced for your half of Canada, most likely they used standard Pinus sylvestris as understock. So the roots should be just as hardy as the scion. They should fuse, and in time, a decade or so, the graft union will be totally invisible. I would not worry at all about the graft creating problems. EXCEPT, if you wire this tree, do not try to make a bend anywhere near the graft point. While the graft looks well along on being fused, it will never be as strong as a normal wood. It will break instead of bend. So just remember to not try to make bends below the first set of branches.
Great gift.
PierreR
Shohin
@Leo in N E Illinois Thank you sir.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
Japanese maples are also referred to constantly as "Jap." maples. That is a pretty potent insult for older folks. It was used as a slur in the latter half of the 20th century and still grates on the nerves of some of the over 50 crowd and especially in the over 60 crowd.
Not saying you shouldn't use the abbreviation, but don't get all upset if someone older smacks you in the face afterwards, especially if that older person is of Japanese decent.
And a true Scotsman will left their kilt and moon you if you refer to "Scotch" pines, mostly "Scotch" anything.
just.wing.it
Deadwood Head
I wish my wife would randomly buy me trees.... Lucky guy.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
Sometimes names and titles can get you into trouble, sometimes they can be fun. Many years ago I worked with an individual from Holland who was here just to make money, he was a tried and true Socialist and a nasty one as well; and hated America. I once asked him: "Often a person from Poland can be called a Pole------Does that mean that someone from Holland can be called a Hole?" Needles to say he was not too happy with me and I didn't care. He was after all a Hole------and a big one.
Harunobu
Chumono
wtf
