Young nursery stock Limber Pine

[BonsaixDad]

Your potting progression is too fast. Would suggest a wood grow box for at least 3 years. Use 100% pumice. It takes this long for full recovery of a conifer if any reasonably serious work done on roots and Limbers are not fast growers.. Bends can also be done with notching on heavier trunks, Roots must be tied down and established for at least a year before any wrenching is done on the trunk or the rest of the tree. This can damage any new root establishment growth. Plan on Bonsai pot use only after tree is ready for refinement training and trunk as big as is desired. Personally would say not less than 10 years if was my tree. JBP are much faster

I’ve been thinking about this recently and decided to ask, why 100% pumice and not 1:1:1 mix?

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

It’s just one developmental media and cheaper out west. Michael Hagedorn was using something like 80 pumice 20 composted manure for his grow out mix when last I visited.

Folks use lot of different grow out mixes. Pumice is very often one of them. Perlite is used to replace pumice sometimes.

Best
DSD sends

 

[Potawatomi13]

I’ve been thinking about this recently and decided to ask, why 100% pumice and not 1:1:1 mix?

Pumice gives a good O2/H2O balance in the right particle size, does not break down and can be reused. It was recommended to me by Ryan Neil in person. I use it when repotting pines and have had good results and it is almost impossible to over water as it drains excellently and at the same time retains water in its porosity. For most of us west coast people it is also cheap. The "mix" requires mixing or buying a more expensive product, It uses components that break down in time and fail to drain well or become clay around trees roots if not repotting regularly. That is all but the hardest akadama or any organic part. MANY use akadama because it is a snobby "magic" Japanese Bonsai traditional component at least in part of reasoning. Nothing magic about it. Pumice is better in pretty much every way.

Soil wars flame away

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Indeed all the above is correct.

Studies show trees in pumice produce more gangly root systems. This is the reason folks switch to a APL or other media mix as the tree nears refinement. Despite its cost etc, no media found at this point will produce the scaling root systems Akadama does. (Ryan Neil et al).

This doesn’t mean it won’t be found, just not yet. A geological study showed there likely are similar deposits in Oregon. In fact there is a rumor emanating out of the Portland club that a secret stash has been found.

Other media, zeolite, expanded shale, Bonsai Jack special mixes, “Akadama out of South Africa” etc etc are possibilities. There are staunch proponents of multiple different media mixes that state ‘The one we use is the best’, but no data to definitively prove this is best?

Learning about and choosing media for bonsai can be really confusing to a beginning hobbyist. And there are many media one could try.

However at some point one has to ask oneself. Am I gonna spend years of effort studying horticulture and learning to excellent technique developing my trees, or instead spend years testing multiple media in conditions in which variables abound?

So one thought is to pick the media the very best practitioners in your area use, spend the rest of your time studying horticulture and technique. Once done you’ll likely know enough to make a switch or not.

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[BonsaixDad]

Pumice gives a good O2/H2O balance in the right particle size, does not break down and can be reused. It was recommended to me by Ryan Neil in person. I use it when repotting pines and have had good results and it is almost impossible to over water as it drains excellently and at the same time retains water in its porosity. For most of us west coast people it is also cheap. The "mix" requires mixing or buying a more expensive product, It uses components that break down in time and fail to drain well or become clay around trees roots if not repotting regularly. That is all but the hardest akadama or any organic part. MANY use akadama because it is a snobby "magic" Japanese Bonsai traditional component at least in part of reasoning. Nothing magic about it. Pumice is better in pretty much every way.

Soil wars flame away

The cost factor is HUGE for sure. Makes this coming spring a lot cheaper for me than originally planned, which i am all for haha

 

[shohin_branches]

Most bonsai soil is reusable anyway so eventually you reach a point of soil volume balance where you are just sifting and reusing the soil you have. I occasionally buy another bag of akadama to replace what broke down. What's in my soil mix? Everything

 

[BonsaixDad]

So its mid July zone 6b, i noticed today its browning on a lot of the old needles. From what i understand natural needle drop is supposed to happen in fall. Some of the maybe second year needles maybe third, im not sure, are showing this red/brown banding around them. All the new growth looks absolutely fine. Is this premature needle drop and should i be concerned?

 

[BonsaixDad]

Also here is how massively deep the container is. Full of dense organic material. I’ve been watering it when its dry to about my second nuckle deep. Too dry, too wet?

 

[Potawatomi13]

Also here is how massively deep the container is. Full of dense organic material. I’ve been watering it when its dry to about my second nuckle deep. Too dry, too wet?

Does H2O run out the bottom when you water? If it does can you tell how much was absorbed? If it is wet then little will pass through as the organic matter is swelled up. If a lot runs out then it needs more. Also if it is very damp(not wet)just under the surface say about 1/2" then it is just right. As Limbers do not like wet feet personal best suggestion is to get into growing container as soon as practical with pumice substrate about 1/4-3/16" size. For the time being can also add a few holes about this size to sides of this container.

 

[BonsaixDad]

Does H2O run out the bottom when you water? If it does can you tell how much was absorbed? If it is wet then little will pass through as the organic matter is swelled up. If a lot runs out then it needs more. Also if it is very damp(not wet)just under the surface say about 1/2" then it is just right. As Limbers do not like wet feet personal best suggestion is to get into growing container as soon as practical with pumice substrate about 1/4-3/16" size. For the time being can also add a few holes about this size to sides of this container.

Water does run out the bottom, definitely does not flow like it does with some of my other trees in more course substrates.
Hmm so if im waiting for it to be pretty much dry an inch or so down before i water could i be letting it dry out too much??
I was wondering if drilling extra holes was a thing, im glad you suggested that, i will definitely be doing that to help make it through until spring repot time!

 

[Potawatomi13]

Depth depends where your "keeper" surface roots are. Definitely don't let them dry out. I guess that's the best guage.

 

[MaciekA]

So its mid July zone 6b, i noticed today its browning on a lot of the old needles. From what i understand natural needle drop is supposed to happen in fall. Some of the maybe second year needles maybe third, im not sure, are showing this red/brown banding around them. All the new growth looks absolutely fine. Is this premature needle drop and should i be concerned?

I work on various 5 needle pines both US-native and not, including limber. These needle issues you see are no big deal (esp in light of you saying new growth looks good, and it LGTM too) and so I wouldn't troubleshoot needle issues too much this year. You can and should clean out old busted needles as you see them shed or go brown.

There isn't much out there that threatens a limber pine as long as it's in full sun and you're watering thoroughly when you do water (i.e. strong flush) and are making sure to water infrequently (i.e let top soil dry out a bit before rewatering). Anything that does pop up this year, before you've started the soil transition and root edits, is going to ultimately be solved by that soil transition and those root edits.

For this case, almost (see borer note) all pathological roads lead to (in stages) bare rooting into pumice anyway. If you fear borers or adelgids during weak periods, you could treat with imidacloprid (example product: bioadvanced "tree & shrub") a couple times a year, notably in the spring as its waking up and pushing.

 

[BonsaixDad]

I work on various 5 needle pines both US-native and not, including limber. These needle issues you see are no big deal (esp in light of you saying new growth looks good, and it LGTM too) and so I wouldn't troubleshoot needle issues too much this year. You can and should clean out old busted needles as you see them shed or go brown.

There isn't much out there that threatens a limber pine as long as it's in full sun and you're watering thoroughly when you do water (i.e. strong flush) and are making sure to water infrequently (i.e let top soil dry out a bit before rewatering). Anything that does pop up this year, before you've started the soil transition and root edits, is going to ultimately be solved by that soil transition and those root edits.

For this case, almost (see borer note) all pathological roads lead to (in stages) bare rooting into pumice anyway. If you fear borers or adelgids during weak periods, you could treat with imidacloprid (example product: bioadvanced "tree & shrub") a couple times a year, notably in the spring as its waking up and pushing.

Thank you for this, i definitely need to try and stay calm and patient throughout the rest of this year until repot. Here’s a couple more photos just to add clarity, to me if i web md this thing with the red banding and needle drop, it looks like it could potentially be Dothistroma, but i’ve also heard this could be a heat/drought/overwatering stress response? No idea how this tree has been watered its whole nursery life since i just got it this fathers day