One of these Seigens is not like the other...

[BrianBay9]

@BrianBay9 I think you are missing the point. It's not about the value, it's about what a person likes and wants.

For example, I know I like the precise characteristics of the Beni Chidori cultivar, from leaf color to internode length, etc. If everyone starts selling trees as Beni Chidori that aren't actually that, I am not guaranteed to get what I know I like and want when I purchase the tree and start a long development journey with it. That's the issue with labeling -- it doesn't mean they aren't going to be beautiful trees, it just means you don't know what you are going to get and whether it's what you actually want.

I don't think I'm missing the point. If the cultivars have value to you, go for it. I'm past the point of buying cuttings. I need to spend money to save time at this stage of my life. Soooo, if I see mature stock and like it, that's all that matters to me.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I guess I don't get all the fuss over a name.

If you own the tree, it doesn't matter. I actually have a tree that I have tagged "Alison's Favorite" because it was a non-descript tree from a nursery where they had lost the tag and sold it to us for a low price because they didn't know what it was and my wife liked it. I gave it a name just to keep it separate from other trees with known provenance.

If, on the other hand, you are shopping for a specific cultivar, and you pay a premium because that cultivar happens to be rare, or hard to propagate, or any number of reasons, and you receive a tree that looks nothing like what you were expecting, and the seller tells you he/she "thought" it was that cultivar because (insert vague provenance here) and they can't really prove it... you have every right to be upset.

I will also say that I have quite a few JM seedlings, or other non-descript trees that I take just as much pleasure in as a cultivar tree, and in fact may be more valuable to me for personal reasons.

 

[boonefrog]

If, on the other hand, you are shopping for a specific cultivar, and you pay a premium because that cultivar happens to be rare, or hard to propagate, or any number of reasons, and you receive a tree that looks nothing like what you were expecting, and the seller tells you he/she "thought" it was that cultivar because (insert vague provenance here) and they can't really prove it... you have every right to be upset.

This is the reason I'm trying so hard to get to know my cultivars. I'm a propagation freak and take at least 1500 cuttings a year. If I'm selling or gifting those rooted cuttings to others, I want to do so with integrity. This thread has helped confirm for me that I will not be labeling or offering the Seigens I recently purchased as such. They will likely just go in the landscape and be as "east coast Seigens" or something to remind me of their origins until maybe one day we are able to identify what variety they actually are.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

They will likely just go in the landscape and be as "east coast Seigens" or something to remind me of their origins until maybe one day we are able to identify what variety they actually are.

Do this. Don't immediately lose track of what they are or where they came from. At some point you may get a "confirmed" seigen and for all you know they end up being the same - just looking different due to environment reasons.

Though they do not have a DNA list of Japanese maple cultivars (yet) the place where I send plants for DNA testing can confirm whether two trees are the same species - or for that matter whether two individual plants are clones. In the case of plant hybrids, they can tell you what parents the tree has, and how true the tree is to one species or the other. So if I get "confirmed" seigen, one of the first things I will be doing is comparing it to the trees I currently own.

 

[zita]

very interesting everything.
I thought i had a seigen and now realize it isnt the sharp leaved one. Still one of my favorite cultivars.

 

[Paradox]

I like knowing what cultivar of maple and azalea I have.
Each variety/cultivar has its own unique characteristics and I just like knowing what I have

 

[Piedmont Bonsai]

side thought.. I amnoticing old seigens to all be very wide, sparce on the inside and a broad open nature to the crown. Interesting thought that this might be a part of the cultivars natural habit, as I have not really seen mature seigens with a compact crown. Mine also is very broad and open, and I am working the crown back, which requires some big reduction cuts. Or maybe there is just one large volume of trees, all produced roughly at the same time, all exported around the same time and thus set u in the ssame fashion. Thoughts?

View attachment 603984

I see what you mean after looking back at the photos I posted above. *Most* very very old japanese maple bonsai that I see out japan start to have the open feeling to the canopy during the winter view. I think it is just an inevitability of maple bonsai as they are very apically dominant and tend to shed inner branching. Especially as they get older. You can notice on the first tree where some inner branches used to be.

Its also important to note both of the trees i shared above are VERY large in person. Scale could also make them appear very open. If you see the first tree in leaf it is very full


All that being said it could very well be the natural habit of Seigen compared to regular acer palmatum. We need to see a LOT of young seigen in development to compare.

 

[clem]

very interesting everything.
I thought i had a seigen and now realize it isnt the sharp leaved one. Still one of my favorite cultivars.

It's a shame because that's the main interest/particularity of seigen IMO.

If I had a so-called seigen with leaves resembling deshojo, I would call it "acer palmatum type" (yamamomiji). In the same way, for me, a seigen seed should no longer be called seigen or "X seigen" or "seigen hybrid" but acer palmatum, even if the leaves resemble seigen, to avoid spreading a "false seigen".

I wonder if these problems of bad identifications (which ruin trust) also occur in the world of roses or orchids etc. I hope not.