Perched water tables-myth?

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Since the myths are being bunked or debunked, what about perched water tables? The main argument against a drainage layer has been so-called "perched" water tables. Has it really been shown that a bonsai pot with a drainage layer "perches" water?
 

greerhw

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Hey Chris, I have some Chinese pots which are notorious for having convex bottoms, as I'm sure you are well aware. Since they are unglazed pots I can take a good masonery bit and drill holes in all four corners, therefore solving any drainage problems. Sometimes I will open the holes if need be with a chopstick. I know that doesn't address your post in all conditions, but it works on Chinese pots.

Harry
 

tombeur

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Since the myths are being bunked or debunked, what about perched water tables? The main argument against a drainage layer has been so-called "perched" water tables. Has it really been shown that a bonsai pot with a drainage layer "perches" water?
Well with my college physics and chemistry it makes sense to me...

Cheers,

Steve
 
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Chris,

I have supporting evidence and I will post such when I have time.



Will
 

tombeur

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Chris,

I have supporting evidence and I will post such when I have time.



Will
I think that the article I would have referenced was written by Will so I will wait until his response.

Cheers, Steve
 

Ang3lfir3

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for me... and with my teachers 50+ years in bonsai as anicdotal evidence I simply don't use a drainage layer. Why... its a lot of extra work and no damage has been seen when using an appropriate soil mix. But, take into account that our soil mix is rather simple (50% composted FIR bark and 50% Calidama previously red lava) so this may make a difference when compared to the mixes other people use. Its all about conveniece.... and the trees seem to love it.

I vote... IDFM (it doesn't #$$#%# matter)
 

Smoke

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for me... and with my teachers 50+ years in bonsai as anicdotal evidence I simply don't use a drainage layer. Why... its a lot of extra work and no damage has been seen when using an appropriate soil mix. But, take into account that our soil mix is rather simple (50% composted FIR bark and 50% Calidama previously red lava) so this may make a difference when compared to the mixes other people use. Its all about conveniece.... and the trees seem to love it.

I vote... IDFM (it doesn't #$$#%# matter)
How you getting calidama up there?
 

Rick Moquin

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Don't need an article use Brent's sponge technique, that is all that is req'd to debunk a drainage layer is not required. Furthermore, anyone can do this at home in a clean sanitised kitchen ;)
 

greerhw

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How you getting calidama up there?
Kool name, how do I get some to impress my friends. Our club members are a hoot, all you have to do is bring in a green tree and tell them you use Gomers bonsai mix and they all run out and try to find it. My bad, but true.

Harry
 
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Graydon

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I don't know about the drainage layer (larger particles of same soil) doing anything for me or the tree other than making it easier for me to yank a tree free from a pot and root prune. Those large particles simply fall away with a couple of vigorous shakes.
 

Ang3lfir3

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Kool name, how do I get some to impress my friends. Our club members are a hoot, all you have to do is bring in a green tree and tell them you use Gomers bonsai mix and they all run out and try to find it. My bad, but true.

Harry
from an old post of Al's :

Royola Pacific
William Lue
31281 Wiegman Rd
Hayward, CA 94544
b. 510-471-0680
f. 510-487-4018
 

Eric Schrader

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I think of the drainage layer not as a layer of different sized particles, but of a layer that is composed entirely of material that will not easily degrade. Akadama, fir bark and all organic material will decompose over time. The drainage layer in my pots is made up entirely of pumice or lava rock, and is the same size as the soil above it. That way I can be sure that a few years down the road there is still a structure to the soil on the bottom of the pot. That said, the breakdown of components above likely clogs the structure anyway.
 

Vance Wood

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I think of the drainage layer not as a layer of different sized particles, but of a layer that is composed entirely of material that will not easily degrade. Akadama, fir bark and all organic material will decompose over time. The drainage layer in my pots is made up entirely of pumice or lava rock, and is the same size as the soil above it. That way I can be sure that a few years down the road there is still a structure to the soil on the bottom of the pot. That said, the breakdown of components above likely clogs the structure anyway.
Not looking to be argumentative but if you think about it this is what happens: Over time any fines that were left in the original soil mix, and any fines that develop as the soil mix degrades, will for the most part end up at the bottom of the pot. Regardless of what you put down there (the bottom of the pot) if the pot does not drain perfectly you will have a rocky mud at the bottom. The question to ask; is this detrimental or not? If it is, how long before this event takes place and what damage can it cause if it does? No matter how you slice it you will eventually have a break down in the soil structure that will wind up in the bottom of the pot.

The point I am trying to make is that in my experience it really does not make much of a difference. Many of us do things that are unnecessary because it is human nature to go the extra step when dealing with something we care about.
 

king kong

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Since the myths are being bunked or debunked, what about perched water tables? The main argument against a drainage layer has been so-called "perched" water tables. Has it really been shown that a bonsai pot with a drainage layer "perches" water?
I would be glad to try and explain this to you Chris but lets set some rules of conduct first before we get going. Same rules apply as we were told in third grade class, only in reverse. When the child called people names or insulted the teacher, the child was sent to the office. Here when the rules of conduct are brooken, the teacher will leave. I think that is not asking for too much.
First lesson will be understanding the nature of water. And by the way, there will be spanking allowed for first offense.
 
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I would be glad to try and explain this to you Chris but lets set some rules of conduct first before we get going. Same rules apply as we were told in third grade class, only in reverse. When the child called people names or insulted the teacher, the child was sent to the office. Here when the rules of conduct are brooken, the teacher will leave. I think that is not asking for too much.
First lesson will be understanding the nature of water. And by the way, there will be spanking allowed for first offense.
Your hardly the one to be complaining about insults or to be giving lessons.

If you have something substantial to add, then add it, don't come in acting like your some great teacher who can not be questioned.




Will
 

king kong

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Mr. Heath, we will use this as an example. This was rude and non productive small man's vernacular. You have a little pyromania in you, an uncontrollable impulse to start fires and to take credit when the house burns to the ground. One more outburst from you and your going to get spanked. Anyone else?
 

Vance Wood

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I would be glad to try and explain this to you Chris but lets set some rules of conduct first before we get going. Same rules apply as we were told in third grade class, only in reverse. When the child called people names or insulted the teacher, the child was sent to the office. Here when the rules of conduct are brooken, the teacher will leave. I think that is not asking for too much.
First lesson will be understanding the nature of water. And by the way, there will be spanking allowed for first offense.
These are your words! Provocative, challenging and typical. I see no need to say any of this other than to provoke another "Flame War".


Mr. Heath, we will use this as an example. This was rude and non productive small man's vernacular. You have a little pyromania in you, an uncontrollable impulse to start fires and to take credit when the house burns to the ground. One more outburst from you and your going to get spanked. Anyone else?
There must be something not right with the way you think. If any body started anything it was and is you. You remind me of someone sitting in an out-house wondering where the smell is coming from.
 

king kong

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Two trouble makers so far, anyone else? Has anybody learned anything yet? No Has anybody got any food for thought on this beautiful day? No If you don't want to learn and have a discussion, now is the time to raise your hand.
 
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