Perched water tables-myth?

[Anonymous User]

Mr. Heath, we will use this as an example. This was rude and non productive small man's vernacular. You have a little pyromania in you, an uncontrollable impulse to start fires and to take credit when the house burns to the ground. One more outburst from you and your going to get spanked. Anyone else?

Can you leave the bull!%^$ at home and actually add something productive to the discussion? Seriously, on the sealant myth thread you attempted to incite arguments, you insulted people, you claimed to know more than some of the best minds in the industry, and you failed to offer one single piece of supporting evidence to show you had the slightest clue of what you were talking about. To date I haven't seen anything from you at all that would convince me that you could even identify a tree in the field if you tripped over it.

Now if you wish to exchange senseless banter all day while engaging in your spanking fantasies, please do so in another thread, as I am sure that I am not the only one who would like to seriously discuss this subject.


Will

 

[king kong]

Mr. Heath, please, we all ready heard from you. Now put your hand down and controll yourself or I will call the office and you will go see the principle.

 

[Anonymous User]

I see intelligent discussion will not be had on this subject, only drivel from someone with delusions of being a teacher.

This isn't even fun, I have had heated exchanges with others in the past, but at least they had enough intelligence to make it interesting, if not fun. With you, it's like beating up a man in a wheelchair or insulting a mentally handicapped person, no challenge and no joy in it, no matter how much they deserve it.

At least pretend to know what you are talking about and post something on the subject.

Will

 

[Rick Moquin]

Two trouble makers so far, anyone else? Has anybody learned anything yet? No Has anybody got any food for thought on this beautiful day? No If you don't want to learn and have a discussion, now is the time to raise your hand.

... there is an old saying... If 9 people out of 10 think your an A........ then chance are you probably are! Enough said! That is 3 people...

 

[king kong]

OK, a new face Rick, never heard of that saying before but it has a nice ring to it. That gets us to three. By the way Mr Heath, we looked up your records and it seems you have been tossed out of another school. Lets try to control our tempers shall we?
So we are at three......can we have a four. Come on folks it's a beautiful day in S Florida lets get out and vote!
By the way, the ones that would like to here my input are free to vote as well. My super-ego doesn't really need it...but it would be nice gesture.Lol's

 

[Vance Wood]

Two trouble makers so far, anyone else? Has anybody learned anything yet? No Has anybody got any food for thought on this beautiful day? No If you don't want to learn and have a discussion, now is the time to raise your hand.

Not looking to be argumentative but if you think about it this is what happens: Over time any fines that were left in the original soil mix, and any fines that develop as the soil mix degrades, will for the most part end up at the bottom of the pot. Regardless of what you put down there (the bottom of the pot) if the pot does not drain perfectly you will have a rocky mud at the bottom. The question to ask; is this detrimental or not? If it is, how long before this event takes place and what damage can it cause if it does? No matter how you slice it you will eventually have a break down in the soil structure that will wind up in the bottom of the pot.

The point I am trying to make is that in my experience it really does not make much of a difference. Many of us do things that are unnecessary because it is human nature to go the extra step when dealing with something we care about.

My I remind you, Mr. Wizard, of the above quote which I posted earlier this morning. So far you have posted nothing of worth pretaining to this discussion. Though it does not surprise me, you seldom do.

 

[king kong]

Listen Vance, you are a "Schmuck" in your own words and your presentation doesn't exactly inspire my response. By the way, we got you down so please sit back in your seat.
Lesson 2 will be understanding hydraulic conductivity and the Vadose Zone.

 

[UNOCAN]

Just when I thought I was out! They pull me back in!

 

[BONSAI GARAGE]

Bummer, I was kinda looking forward to learning something from this thread. Same ol shat. Chris if you get any good info can you PM me the results? thanks.

 

[Walter Pall]

my take, plain and simple.

When we used soil in our bonsai pots we had to have a drainage area. And there was a theoretical danger of perched water tables. I think it never was a danger really anyway.
Nowadays we use modern substrate. This has the particle size that the drainage used to have. Actually modern substrate is drainage area all through! There is not need to have an additional part for drainage anymore.

What many don't know: You must use the same particle size throughout. Meaning if you add some finer soil, organic or whatever to rough particles you will indeed sooner or later have a drainage problem because the finer particles will clog the areas between the large particles and will meet at the bottom of the pot. I remember when I 'knew' that I had to add some 'real' soil, meaning compost to akadama because the tree 'must' have some feed in the soil. All wrong! The nutrients come with feeding. It is absolutely correct to have substrate with no nutrient contents at all.

Perched water tables are a thing that play no role in bonsai anymore if they ever did.

 

[Eric Schrader]

The point I am trying to make is that in my experience it really does not make much of a difference. Many of us do things that are unnecessary because it is human nature to go the extra step when dealing with something we care about.

Yes Vance, I think you are right. But since by my method the particles are the same size, it also doesn't hurt; When I repot trees a few years later I don't find that the ones with a layer of pumice on the bottom are miraculously better in some way...but you are also right about going the extra step. It takes so little extra time to do this little thing that could potentially have some benefit...so I do it.

This is such a lively board these days. I was just over at the new IBC board and there seems to be no activity. Maybe I'll post a photo!

 

[Anonymous User]

I was just over at the new IBC board and there seems to be no activity. Maybe I'll post a photo!

Try the new International Bonsai Forum

 

[Anonymous User]

Perched water tables are a thing that play no role in bonsai anymore if they ever did.

What are your thoughts on the practice of using large particles in the bottom of the pot and smaller regualr particles ontop of that layer. This is what is commonly called and used as a drainage layer and is believed to cause a perched water table ontop of that larger particle area?


Will

 

[Rick Moquin]

... from Evergreen Gardenworks

What About that Saturated Column Thing?
Ok, just how high a column of saturated soil do you get in a container? The height of the column of water retained in the soil by an impermeable layer is related to size of the particles. Sound familiar? The denser the soil, the higher the column will be and the more water will be retained. Large particle, highly aerated soils will not support a large saturated volume. This is what we mean by 'well drained'. You can test this for yourself. Take a regular sponge, soak it with water. Rest it in your hand horizontally until the water stops running out. Then tilt the spronge upright. You are now increasing the saturated column. The sponge density won't support a column that high and water will drain out.

... Rest it in your hand or drainage layer. Although Brent uses this to discuss pot size etc... it nonetheless a quick experiment that can demonstrate the effects of a drainage layer. In a kitchen sink or large container, the drainage layer could be screen mesh etc... in a pot only the hollows will contain water (poorly designed pot) in a properly designed pot no water should be found cvontained in the drainage layer.

Once the drainage layer has been contaminated with broken down substrate it becomes useless anyway. As been said a properly "clean" "same size" substrate is all you need.

 

[Walter Pall]

What are your thoughts on the practice of using large particles in the bottom of the pot and smaller regualr particles ontop of that layer. This is what is commonly called and used as a drainage layer and is believed to cause a perched water table ontop of that larger particle area?


Will

Will,

I certainly understand what is meant by drainage layer. My experience is that there is no change other that I have to place the rootball considerably higher to leave space for the drainage. I don't use it anymore therefore. I never was afraid of perched water tables.

 

[Vance Wood]

When I first started doing bonsai, after I got to a point where I learned about soil and all that, we did not have such things as Turface, Akadama, Red Lava, or any other of the popular media used today. We made soil from collected materials just as carefully gathered as the trees we worked with. We would harvest clay from this area, Loamy soil from another and sand from yet another. We used Peat Moss and occasionally, agricultural sand could be found and used We would then have to sift this stuff down to get rid of the fines and use the particles that were left hoping that they would not break down too fast. They always did.

We of course used a drainage layer, mostly because the books said to do so, (Yoshimura's book) but the type of soil we were putting together more or less demanded it. Today, with the materials that we use, a drainage layer is not necessary. We even went so far as to level the bottoms of the pots by pouring a layer of cement in the bottom to establish a perfectly flat bottom surface with no pockets in the corners or random depressions anywhere else. Even when I was using a drainage layer I found that on repotting that layer was wet and colonized with roots anyway. So the question begs itself: Why bother?

Time in question here is late 50's early 60's.

 

[UNOCAN]

Walter & Vance, well said. So does everyone get this now? Can't be any simpler than this, "if you are truly using freedraining soil, sit back & relax, theres nothing to worry about perching this & perching that! If you aren't using freedraining soil, well, then you will be searching out threads like these for years upon years worrying!
Even Harry got it right (convex pots) drill holes!
Case closed!

PS, when you use really good freedraining soil, you'll be worrying if you have to water again! Thats freedraining people!

 

[greerhw]

Walter & Vance, well said. So does everyone get this now? Can't be any simpler than this, "if you are truly using freedraining soil, sit back & relax, theres nothing to worry about perching this & perching that! If you aren't using freedraining soil, well, then you will be searching out threads like these for years upon years worrying!
Even Harry got it right (convex pots) drill holes!
Case closed!

PS, when you use really good freedraining soil, you'll be worrying if you have to water again! Thats freedraining people!

Whoa tin can, back the truck up. "Even Harry got it right", no well said.

Harry

 

[Anonymous User]

Walter & Vance, well said. So does everyone get this now? Can't be any simpler than this, "if you are truly using freedraining soil, sit back & relax, theres nothing to worry about perching this & perching that! If you aren't using freedraining soil, well, then you will be searching out threads like these for years upon years worrying!
Even Harry got it right (convex pots) drill holes!
Case closed!

PS, when you use really good freedraining soil, you'll be worrying if you have to water again! Thats freedraining people!

Not quite a closed case by any means. What we have heard is that a drainage layer is really not necessary anymore because of the free draining soil mixes we use today, but how does this apply to perched water tables?

In short, it doesn't, because if we use a free draining mix consorting of particles of the same size there can not be a perched water table. So, as Walter says, there is no worry.

But....

There are many who still use a drainage layer consisting of larger particles than the mix above it and advocate doing so. The perched water table comes in where the two differing particles sizes meet. Contrary to popular belief, the larger particle layer does not increase or hasten drainage, it in fact impairs it.

Simple physics tell us that this happens where water adhesion occurs at an area where surfaces change size and/or texture.

All this can be solved by eliminating the practice of using a drainage layer at all, which a vast majority of bonsaists and container gardeners have done.

So, the question put forth "does a drainage layer cause a perched water table" really hasn't been addressed yet, however we have learned that using uniform particle sizes in or mix without a drainage layer negates the worry completely.


Will

 

[tombeur]

That gets us to three.

4

Cheers,

Dudley Doright