Pine Trees - Multiple Buds / Shoots / Candles

[Vance Wood]

It depends on a whole lot of things; how healthy is the tree, the timing (month of year) and where the process takes place. Most of the time on SFP's If you cut in the early summer you will get up to six buds around the truncation of the primary shoot. If you cut in early summer as in July, you will get more new buds forming on old wood, provided you have kept some needles with their buds intact instead of removing them as is done with JBP's. The idea being; you allow the tree to exercise maximum growth and establish what could be called a full head of steam growth wise then you interrupt this process at about the time the tree wants to set new bud for the next year. With multi-flush Pines you will get a second flush of growth with single flush you will get a bunch of buds and if you are carful and a little lucky you will get smaller buds and a lot of them in areas where you want new growth. As to the process many understand as pinching where the new shoot is truncated as it is with double flush Pines I find the development of new buds to be sketchy at best and almost impossible to predict. Unless the tree is unhealthy and weak you will always get new buds to form somewhere. The idea is to do this stuff at a time that will give you the kind of response you desire.

 

[Vance Wood]

I'sorry I don't understand the lack of response??????

 

[mrcasey]

Tks for the insight Vance and others. I've been reading bnut posts and watching videos by Bjorn Bjorholm, Ryan Neil, and Peter Warren. For trees in refinement, Bjorn advocates spring pinching (or cutting) only once a year. Neil and Warren, however, suggest multiple pinching sessions stretched out over a few weeks. Does one of these methods work better?

 

[Vance Wood]

Tks for the insight Vance and others. I've been reading bnut posts and watching videos by Bjorn Bjorholm, Ryan Neil, and Peter Warren. For trees in refinement, Bjorn advocates spring pinching (or cutting) only once a year. Neil and Warren, however, suggest multiple pinching sessions stretched out over a few weeks. Does one of these methods work better?

I assume you have discovered that there are two different categories of pines grouped as single flush Pines and multi-flush Pines. You need to determine which family your tree belongs to. I deal mostly with single flush Pines and as such I find that most methods taught for single flush Pines miss the mark.

 

[BunjaeKorea]

I'm in a similar boat, Amat. I am disabled and housebound - I cant move many of my trees without help from my family. Repotting time is really difficult. My photos are pretty poor too as I cant get the trees in to the best position!!

I too, would like to extend my thanks to Oso, Adair and PaulPash for answering my questions. It really is a great help!

Andy

Remember pines can be left in their pot a long time! Westerners really repot their pines wayyyyyyyyyy to often. Smaller trees are done every 2 to 4 years and our large trees we do every 10 years when they have basically destroyed the soil or split the pot. (some of the old-timers here will verify this fact). So if you are into pines, then good fertilizing and watering will keep them happy for years without a repot. Just my two cents^^

 

[mrcasey]

I assume you have discovered that there are two different categories of pines grouped as single flush Pines and multi-flush Pines. You need to determine which family your tree belongs to. I deal mostly with single flush Pines and as such I find that most methods taught for single flush Pines miss the mark.

Whoops. Yes - my posts in this thread are specifically about single flush pines.

 

[Vance Wood]

Whoops. Yes - my posts in this thread are specifically about single flush pines.

Explain to me what you understand about single flush Pine bud and or shoot development. What do you hope will happen and what do you expect will happen?

 

[mrcasey]

The main reasons for pruning present season's growth on single flush pines depend on whether or not the tree is in refinement or development.

Development

If the tree is in development, prune in mid summer instead of pinch in spring. The terms "pinch" and "prune" don't actually refer to the method of cutting - they more refer to why, when, and how much of the new growth is truncated. If the tree is still in development, candles should be left to extend and open until the new growth begins to harden off but before new buds set. Signs of hardening off include darker foliage color, sharper needles, and loss of needle sheaths on JWP. For me, this typically happens from early to mid July. At this point, the seasons new growth is pruned off. I don't know if any of the present season's needles should be left. During this process, whorls of more than two branches can be pruned back to two. The reason for waiting to mid summer is so that the the tree can accumulate more resources to yield a more powerful back budding response after pruning. The tree should be fertilized heavily throughout the growing season.

Refinement

If the tree is in refinement. the objective is to balance the lengths of the internodes, lengths of the needles, and maintain the silhouette. Truncating new growth on single flush pines in mid spring is referred to as "pinching". Candles are allowed to elongate until the needles are just beginning to show (roughly 1 mm). According to Bjorn, all the candles are pinched back to the average length of the smallest candles. For Bjorn, pinching is only done once. According to Ryan Neil and Peter Warren, pinching is carried out over a period of days or weeks. Strong candles are pinched back, but as the candles continue to elongate, some of the medium strength candles become over grown and must also be pinched back. Also at this time, whorls should be reduced to two branches. If the tree is in balance, then no pinching is necessary (according to Adair). Fertilizer should be withheld
until after needles harden off.

If spring pinching is done, then summer pruning isn't done. If summer pruning is done, then the tree should not have been pinched earlier in spring.

 

[Japonicus]

loss of needle sheaths on JWP. For me, this typically happens from early to mid July.

I get this in October after or about the time frosts begin here, JWP and EWP both.
I doubt there's anywhere in the world where sheaths drop in Summer on WP.

I'm going back to pinching candles down to 25% on strongest ones, then coming back in as others elongate
and pinching those down. For me how much % the 2nd or 3rd round of pinching gets depends on candle and branch strength/length.
After this the waters get muddy for me other than Fall pruning. Even that, I need some hands on experience with better qualified hands.
The last 2 years I've tried candle cutting and did not like the results, so I'm going back to pinching, but I've had mine 15 yrs
and I still am not confident with it.

 

[mrcasey]

I get this in October after or about the time frosts begin here, JWP and EWP both.
I doubt there's anywhere in the world where sheaths drop in Summer on WP.

I'll bet you're right. What confused me is in the below video. Starting at the 11:45 mark, Ryan Neil says that, "If we don't let those needles harden off, we don't reaccumulate that energy... the tree
is in the minus for the rest of the year... so if we let that grow, we let it harden off... and then we cut..." Then he goes on to ask the students, "How do you know when the needles have hardened off on a white pine?" He then answers his own question, "It drops its sheaths."

 

[Japonicus]

I'll bet you're right. What confused me is in the below video. Starting at the 11:45 mark, Ryan Neil says that, "If we don't let those needles harden off, we don't reaccumulate that energy... the tree
is in the minus for the rest of the year... so if we let that grow, we let it harden off... and then we cut..." Then he goes on to ask the students, "How do you know when the needles have hardened off on a white pine?" He then answers his own question, "It drops its sheaths."

Agreed, I have that video saved to favs but you notice how little time he spends on WP.
It's where having a single JWP without performing all the different ideas out there on different
trees in the same family, that keeps me in the minus for cause and effect trial applications.
So for now, I'm going back to doing what I've been doing for the last 15 years on this tree
which although not high quality material, it's not a dump either, and it is still alive.
I do get frustrated with it now and then, Adair can testify to that. I got super long necks
last 2 years and few purple pollen cones. When I pinched those 2 issues never came up.
She's a beaut in bloom, and I expect it will take till Spring 2022 to see that again, we'll see.

So the video shouldn't confuse you really, if you know what the papery sheaths look like.
Remembering that video Ryan eludes to it being a 120 mph vs and I have to give the video credit
for starting out with the date it was filmed. That is where these guys that publish videos often time
fail to establish. Then someone watches it years later in Spring...if these timing specific details are
left out, a complexity of problems could occur, on an already complex subject.
If it wasn't complex, I wouldn't be here trying to learn

 

[0soyoung]

I doubt there's anywhere in the world where sheaths drop in Summer on WP.

It happens in Aug/Sep here (with p. strobus and p. parv.). That is summer = after the summer solstice (21Jun) and before the autumnal equinox (21 Sep). Old needle drop is subsequent in fall, in Oct.

 

[mrcasey]

After rewatching a lot of Ryan Neil videos, it seems that pruning for development/back buds on single flush pines should not be carried out until "hardening off". According to a Ryan Neil bsop video, hardening off occurs on P. sylvestris in early July. But p. parviflora doesn't harden off until the sheaths drop (according to the above linked video). For Japonicus, this is in mid to late October. For Osoyoung, this is late August/September.

Peter Warren makes no distinction between p. parviflora, p. sylvestris, and p. mugo for the the purposes of this pruning regimen. He does his development pruning in July for ALL these single flush species. My initial gut guess is that Peter Warren's schedule probably works as well as Ryan Neil's more complicated one. But I don't know. I'm curious to know what Vance Wood and the Boon folks think about these ostensible subdivisions within the single flush category.

 

[Japonicus]

It happens in Aug/Sep here (with p. strobus and p. parv.). That is summer = after the summer solstice (21Jun) and before the autumnal equinox (21 Sep). Old needle drop is subsequent in fall, in Oct.

LOL I knew somebody would make me eat my words but...I meant in the mid of Summer in my reply to mrcasey
and his notion that this occurs in July here. Thanks for catching that.

I'm curious to know what Vance Wood and the Boon folks think about these ostensible subdivisions within the single flush category.

Me too, and why I subbed to the thread.