Porcelain pots and freezing.

Dav4

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I think I know the answer but I hope to have it confirmed here. I recently purchased a nice round Sara Rayner pot that appears to be porcelain. My assumption is that porcelain pots are just as frost resistant as high fired stoneware...am I right or wrong? Thanks,

Dave
 

jk_lewis

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Unless there are bubbles in the porcelain somewhere (and that's doubtful in your case), you are right.
 

garywood

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Dave, you are correct sir. The caveat, vitrification or close to it must be reached for either to be frost resistant.
Wood
 

Bill S

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Dave my take on it is that the high firing makes it porcelain. DOn't count on my answer though. It could be the materials but I thought the materials were more of a color thing. Be interesting to see what comes.

Can't wait to see what goes in such a pot.
 

rockm

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High firing and clay type. Perhaps more important than clay type (since porcelain is high fired) is the shape of the pot. Any pot with an incurved lip--a lip that comes back over the pot's surface to some extent, is in danger of being broken. Soil expands when it freezes. It move upward in a pot when frozen. If the shape of the pot inhibits or prevents that from happening, the expanding soil will crack or break the pot...
 
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Just to clarify, porcelain and stoneware are different types of clay. Either can be fired to a high enough temperature to vitrify, meaning they will be impervious to water. When something breaks because of a freeze, it is usually because the water in it has expanded when it became ice, and broken the rigid structure. Porous (unvitrified) ceramics can have water in them, and therefore can break because of freezing regardless of shape. Vitrified ceramics, neither stoneware nor porcelain, should not break simply because you freeze and thaw them. However, as mentioned, the soil (or water, or other water containing substance) contained in a ceramic container, can break even a vitrified ceramic if it doesn't have room to expand on freezing. Thus incurved pots are at high risk, while outward sloping pots are safer.
There are differences between porcelain and stoneware which might make them more or less prone to breaking, but generally, it's shape and vitrification.
Eg. Porcelain can be, and often is, thrown thinner, which would generally make it more fragile. Stoneware tends to be darker in color, which could cause it to absorb more sunlight and heat up quicker, leading to rid changes in temperature, which could cause damage even without water expansion, but these are relatively unlikely situations.
 

Dav4

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Thanks everyone. I figured, because porcelain was fired at such high temps, that the resulting material would be frost resistant...thanks for confirming that.
 

davetree

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I have a few trees planted in "incurved" or pot belly type pots. I have never had one break from freezing and I am wondering if this is because they are stored in my garage over the winter. They freeze or thaw very slowly. What do you think ?
 

rockm

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Depends on a few things, including how long the pot stays frozen, the soil's top level, the soil components you're using and the amount of water that is in the soil at a given time. It can also depend on the pot's incurve and construction. A more drastic angle at the top can force a break sooner than a shallower angle.
 

garywood

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I have a few trees planted in "incurved" or pot belly type pots. I have never had one break from freezing and I am wondering if this is because they are stored in my garage over the winter. They freeze or thaw very slowly. What do you think ?

Dave, I've heard this through the years about the in-curve lips. I've never experienced it either and just curious if anyone has personally had this happen. I'm a potter and several years ago, as a test, I filled a couple pots with my bonsai soil (watered) and placed one in the freezer and one left on the bench for winter. Very unscientific but I needed to test the claybody in those conditions. I've also tested, not bonsai pots, but cups and bowls by placing them in boiling water and then placing them in iced water. The point being, could this be the claybody or the curve or supposition? Anyone ever have this happen and pretty sure this was the case, just curious.
Wood
 

rockm

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I've had it happen twice. Long cold wet winters both times. Wet soil, frozen hard for a solid month. Big pots, over a gallon in volume.
Shallow freezes that don't last long (say less than three or four days) won't freeze the soil mass through and cause significant expansion.
 

davetree

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I also use a very loose mix that has no organic material, other than a little akadama, if you consider that organic. Mostly Turface and pumice. I have had the soil freeze completely solid but no breaking. Some of these are really fat looking pots. I wonder if the loose mix expands more easily or something ?
 
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