Post Modern-Neo-Classical/Early Modern Turning Point

[fredtruck]

>>I don't understand the context of post modern-neo-classical/early modern. Can I get a small art lesson first.

Neo-classical usually refers to work done during the reign of Louis XIV. It was rule-driven, the rules coming from Cardinal Richlieu and a small body of scholars. This became the French Academy.

Post Modern: There aren't hard and fast dates. There is, however, an attitude. The attitude is that critical thought is more important than creative work. The emphasis is on treating everything as a text, which is then analyzed to smithereens. Generally, work done in the 70s on is post modern. Originality is out. Appropriation is in.

Early modern usually refers to a small group of artists in Europe--German Expressionism, Munch who did "The Scream," etc. Active from about 1890 to 1910 or so. But again, this isn't a hard and fast term.

 

[rockm]

That is how they apply to Western Art . There is no historical context for them in bonsai really, other than what's been arbitrarily assigned to them in recent years. The reference to "neo-classical" bonsai is reference to the more natural styling using traditional forms...

 

[Attila Soos]

First of all, what is Classical in bonsai? Applying common sense, it has to point to an early time, old enough to be called Classical, but refined enough not to be called Primitive.
So, what is the age of Classical? Anything that pre-dates WWII? I mean, I am sure that bonsai was already sophisticated enough in the 1700s and 1800s, but we don't have enough evidence in regards to how they looked (except a few drawings and paintings). So, we have to rely on the age of photography..which started in the late 1800s. So, therefore, we can call anything "Classical" that was created before the 1960s or eary 70s, I guess.

Neo-classical is, by definition, something that was recently created, and imitates the classics. So, what exactly is imitated today, that was classical at some point in time? I'd say, everything....since I don't see anything revolutionary and brand new. Therefore, Neo-Classical has no real meaning to me.

The only descriptions that I am confortable with, are "naturalistic", or "natural-looking", versus "abstract" or "stylized". Those, I can relate to. As an off-spring of "naturalistic", is the "chinese-style". The difference being, that a "chinese-style" tree can be very uniquely designed, something that you would never see in nature, but still conveys the air of naturalness. So, in that sense, the "chinese style" is a qualifier that has some substance and merit. We can also reference here the trees depicted in chinese landscape paintings, since "Chinese-style" bonsai often follows the same basic patterns.

But getting back to the thread, yes, bonsai seems to regressed into the realm of high craftmanship in the last 30 years, at the expense of creativity. Less so in Southern California, where the old generation is still holding its ground. Not for long though. A massive change of the guards is imminent. The old folks are getting REALLY old, and the new ones seem to follow the new trend, which is designing highly technical and refined helmets. I am exaggerating, of course, but I am also serious. I like to use the term "helmet" a lot, because I've often heard it from Nick Lenz, and it sounded really funny and pertinent at the same time.

 

[grouper52]

I feel like I'll say something profoundly stupid and out of context . . .

I don't know, Vic: in my own personal experience, profoundly stupid and out of context is vastly underrated. I find that it works fine for me most of the time.

 

[Smoke]

I find the title of this thread to be psycho-babble.....

 

[gergwebber]

I like the title of the thread because it really does reflect the confusion around this idea of "what era we are in/entering into/creating/rejecting" I would defer to a true master, Thomas Church, who in his epic book gardens are for people said regarding the move towards and away from "Modernism" in the garden:

"...'Modern' was a battle cry which degenerated into a style and, finally, into a nasty word... Today we are facing the end of a century which promises a clearer understanding of man's relationship to his[/her] environment. 'Modern' can be revived as an honest word when we realize that modernism is not a goal, but a broad highway."


I like to look at the bonsai I see here and in my own yard as a western translation of very old and complex eastern art form. I would view this site (international though it may be) as predominately western in perspective and approach. As new comers to a storied and ancient art form, we will inevitably be reduced to imitation and study of 1000+ years of bonsai in the east. So what? Imitation and study in art is only a stepping stone from which the true artist creates a new path ahead.

And that path ahead is still evolving, and rapidly in the west where we are ever adapting the tried and true methods of growth to new materials that have never before felt the bite of styling wire. I personally feel that many of the "best bonsai" I have seen on this site appear too contrived. But I would not place any of my own trees in that category at this point, so I am moved to think that the "ultra-stylized" trend is as much a reflection of the limitations of the medium as it is a style. Our pieces are living and ever in need of care and reworking. It is only natural that when we subject trees to the will, prejudices, and time frames of humans, we will minister some of the nature out of them.

But I am confident that the "broad highway" of Modernism in all its varied forms will have room for all styles, be they conventional, historical, natural, or absurd, and it is up to the artist to chart his or her own way forward. A very good Japanese friend of mine is often amused when "western otaku" try to "out Japanese the Japanese people," saying that we often arrive at a similar objective, but completely miss the subjective goals of the exercise.

 

[edprocoat]

First thought was ... "what a shame" (personal opinion of course) .... the first image was far superior while still more "cloudy" than I personally prefer it still doesn't feel so cartoony

I agree, the first tree in that picture looked as if it was a tree I had fished near on a lake somewhere. It basically looked more realistic.

ed

 

[pandacular]

An interesting old thread. This came up in a search for the term “neo-classical bonsai” as I was curious what that really meant (and am not clearer now).

But this thread does get at, if indirectly, something that I find interesting, which is that the standards of bonsai in Japan are relatively new and have changed more than many think in recent years. One of the memes I often see on BNut is the reactionary rejection of “the Japanese aesthetic” which ignores that that is not a single thing.

I am curious though about my original question: what are the definable eras of bonsai design? Are there names of movements or periods in bonsai that are commonly used to identify a style or approach? Are there resources where I can study this sort of thing?

 

[Gabler]

As far as I know, bonsai started in China as an extension of the art of miniature landscapes. Then it made its way over to Japan at around the same time as the start of the modern era in the West, and, very recently, it made its way to the West. I don't think it's been on this half of the earth long enough for us to define distinct eras or styles in western bonsai.

 

[pandacular]

I don't think it's been on this half of the earth long enough for us to define distinct eras or styles in western bonsai.

I would specifically be looking for eras of bonsai in the East, as there is quite a bit more history there. It seems that there are a great many books that talk about the history of the practice (Koreshoff comes to mind) but I haven’t found any on the history of the art.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I would specifically be looking for eras of bonsai in the East, as there is quite a bit more history there. It seems that there are a great many books that talk about the history of the practice (Koreshoff comes to mind) but I haven’t found any on the history of the art.

Looking at the Kokufu books over the years is good for this…while not defined in the books, trends (eras?) are definitely observable.

 

[Hartinez]

Looking at the Kokufu books over the years is good for this…while not defined in the books, trends (eras?) are definitely observable.

@pandacular Pretty sure this I something I’ve
heard Ryan Neil Talk a decent amount about on his podcast. Can’t remember the episode/s. But I remember him mentioning a clear visual difference taking place much earlier. The 30s or 40s. Something like that.

 

[pandacular]

Yes, to both, those two things were part of my influenced this question.

At the PBM we have a large collection of Kokufu and other exhibition books. Flipping through these makes this change very obvious, and there’s a couple clear eras that one can see. I also picked up the attached book, titled in English “The Bonsai Masterpiece Collection”, which has winners through the years, as well as updates/progressions. You can see the same trends even on the same tree.

I’ve also heard Ryan talk about this—I think I’ve heard him use the phrase “neo-classical” to refer to the post-WWII bonsai renaissance.

I suspect a big part of this change was tied to the Japanese economic boom, but I don’t know that history well enough to say. I’ve also heard some teachers discuss the state-of-the-art aggregate soils being relatively new, but I can’t recall a specific date given. I wonder how much of an impact that has had.

Actually, I wonder to what extent these are technical trends in addition to stylistic ones. Considering how recently some techniques—black pine decandling namely—have been discovered.

 

[Wood]

@pandacular Pretty sure this I something I’ve
heard Ryan Neil Talk a decent amount about on his podcast. Can’t remember the episode/s. But I remember him mentioning a clear visual difference taking place much earlier. The 30s or 40s. Something like that.

I can't remember which podcast, but Ryan did mention a distinct and immediate shift in styling choices pre- and post-war. Pre-war being more free, inventive and distinct, and that post-war was much more codified, restrained and fit the typical image we see today. He had a couple theories about the Japanese culture and mindset post-war and if it was an adaptation to all that trauma. I was wondering if it was an economic/availability issue -- likely fewer nurseries and trees left, and more people were likely devoted to recovery efforts than to bonsai

I suspect a big part of this change was tied to the Japanese economic boom, but I don’t know that history well enough to say. I’ve also heard some teachers discuss the state-of-the-art aggregate soils being relatively new, but I can’t recall a specific date given. I wonder how much of an impact that has had.

Bjorn has mentioned that the 80s and 90s economic booms definitely influenced bonsai. Enough money was in the industry to support experimenting with wiring techniques in the 80s and the 90s Kokufu exhibitions were the result of it. Deciduous techniques were also expanding with both Ebihara's and Ooishi's work.

 

[pandacular]

Bjorn has mentioned that the 80s and 90s economic booms definitely influenced bonsai

Yes, I watched his Japanese Maple Aesthetics lecture the other day and he mentioned this. Personally that really excites me. We’re only a few decades behind Japan, not centuries!