Pottery making advice please

sorce

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Kilns - my plan was to build gas fired, but now I'm doubting that and think electric might be a good idea because if I've got to experiment with making clays, it would be so much easier to iterate with an electric and programmer.

Once you go gas you see electric sucks ass!

The introduction of electric kilns led to the pussification of Pottery. They became so available to every moron that the entire industry
is now flush with lies and half truths by hobbyists who think they know something. I despise them for this reason.

That's actually the last aha moment I came to that led me to reverse engineer that cycle to understand why rectangle bonsai pots are 3 deep into layers of BS. (Blind spots)lol.

I recently went over cost analysis with another Potter in PM, hopefully they see this and copy and paste that info here...I may find it.

Energy cost is such that, I could fire my electric kiln here for much cheaper than BNUT could fire one in peak hours on California electric costs. Though more expensive per firing my gas than my electric, firing my gas is still incredibly cheaper than it would be for BNUT to fire an electric in California.

I use 2 large propane tanks. So where continued element replacement is the cost and labor in electric firing, my continued cost and labor is taking them to be refilled.

For these reasons, the most cost effective and least continued labor would be utilizing natural gas, or even propane if your house is ran on it, to a slightly lesser degree since those mega tanks must be refilled too.

My biggest concern with using electric, is that it leaves you reliant on things most out of your control. Power outages. Should that happen, it's not the end of the world, as you can just restart it, but every time you put a pot through crystal conversion points, it becomes weaker. This is why I chose to single fire. One conversion. This is why I boast my pots as "zombie killers", or stronger than any others, because it is just a fact.

Bisque firing is for suckers! Another product of the pussification of Pottery.

A view of the long cycle, the big picture, allows one to see that every difficulty in single firing can be overcome with an indepth study during one 16 hour bisque firing alone. The only real difficulty is glazing greenware, watching Simon Leach dunk glaze greenware and have 0 mistakes is enough to know this true.

So for me, it doesn't make any sense to get stuck in a bisquing cycle. It is goddamn foolish.

I'd argue the conspiracy theory that energy companies have a hand in promoting bisque firings. To hell with them!

Besides cost.... control is very important.

There is just way more control and opportunity with a gas fire, this justifies the higher cost for me now.

If I ever get permanent, firing with piped in endless natural gas will be the move.

Start up costs....
I've seen folks hosed to the tune of 4K on electricians. I ran my own with materials cost at around $600. Because I had to run wire over 40ft from the breaker, costs went up exponentially. Longer distance, larger wire gauge, larger conduit...the closer the better.

You can get hosed on expensive burner rigs too.
I bartered a couple potted trees for mine.
Simon uses a $50 weed burner.
I recommend a unit with a BASO safety valve at least, without it, if your flame goes out, gas continues to fill the space, then if you light it, or it accidentally reignites, boom. Folks die this way.

I think I'm into my gas tanks, hoses, regulators, etc at about $600 too.

Kiln prices are kiln prices, I snagged my 1027, ten sided 27inch tall for $50. I wouldn't pay more for a body to convert. There are free ones out there.

Shelves are probably the most important thing. So much so that smart folks say to select your shelves, and build your kiln around them.

All things considered, I've found that Corelite shelves are the most versatile and safe.
CoreLiteRectangles.1.jpg

The many ridges keep them straight, seemingly forever from what I've read.

Anything cheaper warps which deems them useless if you wish to make pots that don't rock.

Advancer™ shelves are much thinner therefore utilize less wasted energy to heat, but without a very well sealed kiln with at least 3in walls to have them heat and cool evenly, they propose a risk of cracking due to thermal shock. These do not warp and glaze can be scraped off with no need for kiln wash on the shelves.

A good kiln wash applied properly and properly maintained is easy enough to negate the need for Advancers.

Lotta morons grind their shelves to holey cratered messes of pocketed BS.

Prevent prevent prevent.

I been popping off bits of glaze on properly washed shelves and rewashing them before they cool.

Use "cookies" of there is ever a worry of a runny glaze.

There are so many methods to prevent ruining shelves, yet these above stated moron hobbyists keep providing funding for the grinder wheel manufacturers!

Sorce
 

penumbra

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Once you go gas you see electric sucks ass!

The introduction of electric kilns led to the pussification of Pottery. They became so available to every moron that the entire industry
is now flush with lies and half truths by hobbyists who think they know something. I despise them for this reason.

That's actually the last aha moment I came to that led me to reverse engineer that cycle to understand why rectangle bonsai pots are 3 deep into layers of BS. (Blind spots)lol.

I recently went over cost analysis with another Potter in PM, hopefully they see this and copy and paste that info here...I may find it.

Energy cost is such that, I could fire my electric kiln here for much cheaper than BNUT could fire one in peak hours on California electric costs. Though more expensive per firing my gas than my electric, firing my gas is still incredibly cheaper than it would be for BNUT to fire an electric in California.

I use 2 large propane tanks. So where continued element replacement is the cost and labor in electric firing, my continued cost and labor is taking them to be refilled.

For these reasons, the most cost effective and least continued labor would be utilizing natural gas, or even propane if your house is ran on it, to a slightly lesser degree since those mega tanks must be refilled too.

My biggest concern with using electric, is that it leaves you reliant on things most out of your control. Power outages. Should that happen, it's not the end of the world, as you can just restart it, but every time you put a pot through crystal conversion points, it becomes weaker. This is why I chose to single fire. One conversion. This is why I boast my pots as "zombie killers", or stronger than any others, because it is just a fact.

Bisque firing is for suckers! Another product of the pussification of Pottery.

A view of the long cycle, the big picture, allows one to see that every difficulty in single firing can be overcome with an indepth study during one 16 hour bisque firing alone. The only real difficulty is glazing greenware, watching Simon Leach dunk glaze greenware and have 0 mistakes is enough to know this true.

So for me, it doesn't make any sense to get stuck in a bisquing cycle. It is goddamn foolish.

I'd argue the conspiracy theory that energy companies have a hand in promoting bisque firings. To hell with them!

Besides cost.... control is very important.

There is just way more control and opportunity with a gas fire, this justifies the higher cost for me now.

If I ever get permanent, firing with piped in endless natural gas will be the move.

Start up costs....
I've seen folks hosed to the tune of 4K on electricians. I ran my own with materials cost at around $600. Because I had to run wire over 40ft from the breaker, costs went up exponentially. Longer distance, larger wire gauge, larger conduit...the closer the better.

You can get hosed on expensive burner rigs too.
I bartered a couple potted trees for mine.
Simon uses a $50 weed burner.
I recommend a unit with a BASO safety valve at least, without it, if your flame goes out, gas continues to fill the space, then if you light it, or it accidentally reignites, boom. Folks die this way.

I think I'm into my gas tanks, hoses, regulators, etc at about $600 too.

Kiln prices are kiln prices, I snagged my 1027, ten sided 27inch tall for $50. I wouldn't pay more for a body to convert. There are free ones out there.

Shelves are probably the most important thing. So much so that smart folks say to select your shelves, and build your kiln around them.

All things considered, I've found that Corelite shelves are the most versatile and safe.
View attachment 414745

The many ridges keep them straight, seemingly forever from what I've read.

Anything cheaper warps which deems them useless if you wish to make pots that don't rock.

Advancer™ shelves are much thinner therefore utilize less wasted energy to heat, but without a very well sealed kiln with at least 3in walls to have them heat and cool evenly, they propose a risk of cracking due to thermal shock. These do not warp and glaze can be scraped off with no need for kiln wash on the shelves.

A good kiln wash applied properly and properly maintained is easy enough to negate the need for Advancers.

Lotta morons grind their shelves to holey cratered messes of pocketed BS.

Prevent prevent prevent.

I been popping off bits of glaze on properly washed shelves and rewashing them before they cool.

Use "cookies" of there is ever a worry of a runny glaze.

There are so many methods to prevent ruining shelves, yet these above stated moron hobbyists keep providing funding for the grinder wheel manufacturers!

Sorce
There is a lot of excellent information here and a lot of bull that seems more based on anger than anything else. (Sorry, that is the way I read it)
Funny cause I have known many potters using wood that think anyone who gas fires is ignorant and doing it half assed.
Fact is wood is in some ways superior to gas and gas in some ways superior to electric, and electric superior to burning cow dung. It is also a fact that you generally have more control with electric, not less. Don't get me wrong, I love gas fired pottery and wood fired more, but I love them because of the appreciation of the potter and the marks, say the footprint of gas and more so wood.
I use electric kilns primarily. Its always there, its always ready, if you want to fire one pot or fifty.

Also, I think its great when a pot can be single fired but most pots are not because glazes are tweaked to get as close to perfect as you can. All of my pots are fires at least twice and I have some that have been fired up to four times. My pots are exceptionally strong.
Corelight shelves are great, but cost 2 - 3 times regular shelves. I have a few and the only advantage I see is weight. Advancers are fantastic, particularity for fine porcelain ware. I set of advancer shelves cost more than either of my kilns. I have seen plenty of warped shelves but in the past 12 years I have never had one warp on me.
Also, I have see kiln wash pop off shelves before when applied to warm shelves. I always apply to freshly cleaned cool shelves and it lasts through dozens of firings.

All these things you will learn on this journey, and everyone's experience will be different. It is great to share the experiences of other potters but ultimately you will make up your own mind about where the BS is, same as you will with your soil mix
 

sorce

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based on anger than anything else. (Sorry, that is the way I read it)

No worries. Funny you bring up soil mix cuz I referenced that where our other discussion is taking place!

I am not really angry, I wouldn't probe anyone but you to ask, what part do you find BS in anger?

If I may, the one instance that put the nail in the coffin for me in regards to the pussification of Pottery, is an instance at the Ceramic Arts Daily forum where, I stated this very true fact that Bonsai Pottery is the most difficult pottery due to the physics it presents that other pots simply don't have.
That led to someone, a popular, successful, cool enough to buy some clay from us for "beer money" cash, who I've delivered to, shook hands with, and consider a friend.....
Getting in his feelings and arguing this fact by saying "physics has nothing to do with it", because he took it as me saying "I'm better than you cuz my work is harder", rather than just seeing the simple fact, that no other pots, short odd artistic sculpture, span the distance, raised on feet, that a bonsai pot does.

If one does not see this as factually and simply true, they are not thinking critically enough.

This of course has to do with the overall pussification of the world.... but....we don't have to go there!

Even if I am angry, which I actually don't have time for, it is only because of things like this.

I know you know me to a greater degree than anyone else.
I appreciate that a lot!

Everything always remains both true and not true in my world.




Sorce
 

sorce

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think its great when a pot can be single fired but most pots are not because glazes are tweaked to get as close to perfect as you can

I don't mean to make this more difficult by adding things before you respond, but I would like to know about this, because it is the only thing I don't understand, or disagree with.

I don't see an inability to tweak or perfect a glaze with single firing.

Sorce
 

penumbra

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electric sucks ass!
electric kilns led to the pussification of Pottery.
every moron
flush with lies and half truths by hobbyists who think they know something. I despise them for this reason.
Bisque firing is for suckers! Another product of the pussification of Pottery.
I love you Sorce, but all of the above is anger and a direct attack on the majority of people who practice pottery. I read the post through but sometimes I do get lost in your posts trying to understand what you are saying. I am certainly not lily white in this regard, but when I make a frame I measure twice and cut once. Same is true when I write. Read twice, post once.
Half truths are half truths only to those who interpret them. I find the half truths you rampage against in your own post. Hell, I find them in my own all the time. That is why I re-read before I post.
I do understand you as well as one might from internet banter. I think you have a huge heart. I think you are sensitive and susceptible to all the problems that surround us all. You are always there to offer advice and even gifting constantly. But understand that this post is a finger in the eye of 90% of the potters out there. The potter community would be very tiny if it were not for electric kilns.
I don't like smart phones. I realize they are better at everything and I have no problem with anyone who has one.
 

rockm

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I don't have a dog in the fight, but just sayin' if you don't have a walk in, hand built, wood fired kiln, you're not a REAL potter... 👍 ;)

 

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sorce

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anger and a direct attack on the majority of people who practice pottery

It is not an attack on the people who practice pottery, but rather, an attack on the BS that makes it harder for these folks to practice pottery successfully.

Yes, these things are harsh and can be read as angry attacks, but as always, it is the option of the reader to say, "I'm not a sucker/moron/pussified, so let me research this opinion to better understand the downfalls of falling into these traps so I may better and continue to avoid being a sucker/moron/pussified".

These are emotionless opinions based on observed facts, all I can do is promise that.

Please expand on ....

I don't mean to make this more difficult by adding things before you respond, but I would like to know about this, because it is the only thing I don't understand, or disagree with.

I don't see an inability to tweak or perfect a glaze with single firing.

Sorce

Sorce
 

penumbra

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I don't have a dog in the fight, but just sayin' if you don't have a walk in, hand built, wood fired kiln, you're not a REAL potter... 👍 ;)

I certainly can appreciate that. That is the wet dream of most potters that will never come to fruition. Participating in the use of one is terribly exciting and laborious. Taking a week to fire and cool, requiring shifts of people to fuel the 2-3 cords of wood is something most of us can't even imagine. The folks I know who have wood kilns fire them about twice a year. It is a real event.
Of course the end result is Wood Fired Pottery.
 

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I’ve met Raku-firers who say that’s the only way...

Soda-Kiln operators who laugh at NON-wood fuels...

A deal of potters who fire predominantly electric..

Spoken, recently actually, with an African potter, who uses a PERSON..in a trance state, speaking tongues.. utilizing sewn stomaches as “forge-bellows”... says any other way.. is NOT “of God”...

Met a Laotian hmong, years before I was into pottery, who spoke of ceremonial pieces ONLY being pit-fired...covered with dung.. for days.

I think it’s all just your PERSONAL favorite/effective/cost efficient method of getting your wares.... real hot. 🤣🤣🤣

Because the proof is in the pudding! The completed ware is all that matters.

I, Personally, have only successfully Gas-fired. I, personally, LOVE the results.. the CONTROL (the absolute BEST part :) ) The “interaction” with the living, breathing kiln environment...

But, conversely, I think owning an electric kiln would be prudent for me.. so I could produce pieces year-round.. it’s DAMN cold up here.

And I KNOW, at .11 per kw hour locally, electric would be cheaper, for me, PER FIRE.. maintenance costs not assessed..

I also know that gas firing is pretty ...um.. “beefy” towards kiln internals, also.. so I am curious which firing type is actually HARDER on the kilns.. like taking the “element cost” out.. let’s just talk bricks.
 

sorce

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let’s just talk bricks.

3 days later we have a subforum about bricks alone! Lol!

I don't think gas firing is any more damaging to the interior than electric.

Soda and Salt firings are the most absolutely damaging.

Wood fires can be kept relatively clean and lacking fly ash, or promoting fly ash.

More "atmospheric" kilns are built with solid, less porous firebrick on the interior and insulated with more porous bricks on the outside.

Glazes prone to "spitting" will damage interiors more than others in any atmosphere.

Something about the relation between bricks and straw sizes...lol!

Sorce
 

HorseloverFat

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Cool!.. so if brick maintenance/upkeep would be similar, the element seems to be that one important variable.

How many.. say Cone 6/7 runs at 8-12 Hours do the average elements run.
 

penumbra

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Cool!.. so if brick maintenance/upkeep would be similar, the element seems to be that one important variable.

How many.. say Cone 6/7 runs at 8-12 Hours do the average elements run.
There is a formula for this but there are a lot of variables. Fuming from glazes, oxides and wax are the most destructive thing on elements and proper venting will eliminate most of that. It is best to keep a log and most serious potters do. But I hate paperwork and I guess I'm just not serious enough. My small non vented Olympic Kiln has been fired to ^06 at least 40 times and ^6 a bit more and it is still holding up. I keep expecting it to crap out but it hasn't yet. I have had a replacement set for several years still in bags.
 

penumbra

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3 days later we have a subforum about bricks alone! Lol!

I don't think gas firing is any more damaging to the interior than electric.

Soda and Salt firings are the most absolutely damaging.

Wood fires can be kept relatively clean and lacking fly ash, or promoting fly ash.

More "atmospheric" kilns are built with solid, less porous firebrick on the interior and insulated with more porous bricks on the outside.

Glazes prone to "spitting" will damage interiors more than others in any atmosphere.

Something about the relation between bricks and straw sizes...lol!

Sorce
All of this is very true and accurate.
 

sorce

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There is a formula for this but there are a lot of variables. Fuming from glazes, oxides and wax are the most destructive thing on elements and proper venting will eliminate most of that. It is best to keep a log and most serious potters do. But I hate paperwork and I guess I'm just not serious enough. My small non vented Olympic Kiln has been fired to ^06 at least 40 times and ^6 a bit more and it is still holding up. I keep expecting it to crap out but it hasn't yet. I have had a replacement set for several years still in bags.

I don't know that you give yourself enough credit for being fucking awesome.
You're not just "getting away with this shit"!

How many.. say Cone 6/7 runs at 8-12 Hours do the average elements run.

I've read so many different stories with so many different outcomes, the only thing I know to be absolutely true is that the thicker more "pro" version of skutt elements are worth the investment.

Of course, for someone like yourself, it may be more efficient to read up on rolling your own. Legit, there's information about it, and is probably the most cost effective way.

Sorce
 

HorseloverFat

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There is a formula for this but there are a lot of variables. Fuming from glazes, oxides and wax are the most destructive thing on elements and proper venting will eliminate most of that. It is best to keep a log and most serious potters do. But I hate paperwork and I guess I'm just not serious enough. My small non vented Olympic Kiln has been fired to ^06 at least 40 times and ^6 a bit more and it is still holding up. I keep expecting it to crap out but it hasn't yet. I have had a replacement set for several years still in bags.
That’s awesome! I have comprehensive, if not a lil sloppy (sometimes bloody), notes and ramps of every fire I’ve ran since I purchased a pyrometer.

I LOVE “note-taking”

🤓
 

penumbra

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I've read so many different stories with so many different outcomes, the only thing I know to be absolutely true is that the thicker more "pro" version of skutt elements are worth the investment.
Yes, by all means if you have a Skutt that needs elements. At least twice the life of standard.
 

HorseloverFat

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That raised foot detail is super groovy!

It would look EVEN BETTER, and accentuated correctly. if those seams above had a touch more attention to keep the design smooth and fluid. (like 'teeny blending tool-work ((This would make a WORLD of difference on both pieces, actually)))

Looking Excellent!
 
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